"Austrian Artillery Uniforms" Topic

Coming from the discussion on the 'New Digby Smith Book' I am now wondering about the true colour of Imperial Austria's artillerymen. Like, I suppose, most people I have always imagined them to have worn a shade of brown (usually red-brown) from Maria-Theresa to Franz-Joseph. However, from the Digby-Smith book and subsequent conversations, it seems that a grey uniform would have been appropriate at some periods.

I have never seen an illustration of this nor a mention in text, let alone an appearnce on the wargaming or modeller's table. Does anyone have fuller information on this and know of an illustation/source to back it up? It could be that some serious repainting will be required, or a 'willing suspension of disbelief'.

First I've heard of it. Artillery uniforms were brown in the SYW and the Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars. Therefore I suppose there might be a window of opportunity after WSS and before WAS, or the 35 years after the SYW before the Revolutionary wars.

Could you expand on what 'Otto von Pivka' said exactly.

Clibinarium said 'There is some question over the brown of Austrian artillery uniforms, apparently it wasn't the rich red-brown often illustrated until some point during the Napoleonic wars (I don't know when the change took place) before that it was apparently a greyish colour. Most SYW Austrian gunners are painted in the wrong colour, including my own, but I won't change them, the red-brown is nicer.'

I do not have the 'Otto' quote to hand, but it seems very surprising and, like you, it is the first I've heard of it.

The regulations are:

1720: Perlgrau as for the infantry

1748: White infantry uniforms with leather trousers if desired.

1762: A Schematis shows the artillery in brown.

1772: This is where the problem arises – the uniform is described as brown, but officially known as "wolfsgrau". In addition, the artillery had overcoats in brown.

Around 1790: the colour description in official documents changes regularly between wolfsgrau and rehbraun.

1798: The colour apparently did not change, but was redesignated "rehbraun" with canvas overtrousers.

1799: Probably from around this time, the one surviving jacket, now in Russia, is a mid-grey.

Dave, with all these changes in mind, what would an Austrian gunner be wearing in 1809?

Dave, I understand what you are saying. Its strange that every illustration I have ever seen shows the "rehbraun".
Has anybody ever seen an illustration of "wolfsgrau"?

Ioannis posted some nice SYW prints on his website the other day and again, they are brown.

leuthenjournal.com

Osprey MAA #280, "The Austrian Army 1740-1780: 3 Specialist Troops" describes the wolfsgrau coat and illustrates this artillery coat in three color plates. All three plates show a definite grey-brown coat. My own Austrian artillerymen sport this coat while my Napoleonic Austrian artillerymen wear the more "traditional" tobacco brown uniform coat.

At the Lace Wars Yahoo group I created a folder "7YW Austrian Bataillon Guns" with 3 nice contemporary illustrations. They give you a good idea on the looks of uniform and equippement. Go to

link

The browns was really rather light and in German sources is identified as either "Wolfsgrau" [wolfs grey] or "Rehbraun" [deer brown]

In this connection, what I would love to know is what headgear did the Austrian artillery wear in the 1812-15 period – if it was still the bicorne (and not the shako), they must have been among the very few units in any army to do so?
Looking forward to the answer.
Gerry McGinty

Osprey MAA #223 lists that the corsehut was officially reinstated in 1811 but that the practice of wearing the bicorn continued throughout this period.

Now you have me a bit concerned.

I haven't painted any of my SYW Austrian Artillery and Arrtillery Fusiliers yet.

I was thinking of the deer brown and bought a craft paint : bambi brown and another brown (don't have name handy) to check them out.

Could someone suggest a brand and colour name or code.
I have access to valejo and Reaper primarily.

Thanks.

By 1809, it is not a problem as it is a mid-brown, as it was also used to kit out the Bohemian an Moravian FreiWillige infantry (the illustration in MAA299 has gone too dark). In the 1800-05 period, it seems to be undergoing a transition from a light brown with no real depth to it into this mid-brown.

The 1757 plates in Allmayer-Beck show what a problem it can be as you move the page. It is basically a washed-out light bronw, but it is easy to see how you could think it is a silvery grey. Some flat figures painted in line with the 1762 Schematis are clearly a light brown. However, that jacket in Russia is very definitely a mid-grey, but you know how short money was!

The headgear was supposed to be usually the tricorne Hut, although it was increasingly pushed back at the front in Nap style, but Seele clearly shows the peasant round hat in 1799 with the back turned up in a sort of Corsehut. The Corsehut was officially brought in during 1802, but quickly abandoned and then, officially it came back in 1811. Klein's 1811-16 prints show a quite high bicorne – probably an 1811 style – with the Fuhrwesen in Corsehuts. The drill camps of 1804 illustrations show a high bicorne.

By 1809, it is not a problem as it is a mid-brown, as it was also used to kit out the Bohemian an Moravian FreiWillige infantry (the illustration in MAA299 has gone too dark). In the 1800-05 period, it seems to be undergoing a transition from a light brown with no real depth to it into this mid-brown.

The 1757 plates in Allmayer-Beck show what a problem it can be as you move the page. It is basically a washed-out light bronw, but it is easy to see how you could think it is a silvery grey. Some flat figures painted in line with the 1762 Schematis are clearly a light brown. However, that jacket in Russia is very definitely a mid-grey, but you know how short money was!

The headgear was supposed to be usually the tricorne Hut, although it was increasingly pushed back at the front in Nap style, but Seele clearly shows the peasant round hat in 1799 with the back turned up in a sort of Corsehut. The Corsehut was officially brought in during 1802, but quickly abandoned and then, officially it came back in 1811. Klein's 1811-16 prints show a quite high bicorne – probably an 1811 style – with the Fuhrwesen in Corsehuts. The drill camps of 1804 illustrations show a high bicorne.

Dave, thanks for the information. My brown artillerymen in 1809 will not have to report to the Quartermaster for a new coat. It's interesting that this has not come up before and that everyone has taken brown for granted. Just shows that more research is always worthwhile.

Greetings Artilleryman

My old Osprey SYW Austrian Army Seaton/Ottenfeld shows an Austrian "kanonier" in winter field service uniform c 1740 which the text describes as "In 1740 all artillerymen wore the pearl grey uniform….The brown uniforms were introduced later"

By the way, the Artillery Fusilier uniform was an earthy dirty gray, not grayish-brown. I think the picture on Laonnis website by Ottenfeld shows the two together. Osprey 280, Austrian Army book 3 – specialist troops, has two color plates. The gunners have a definite light brown uniform with a grayish tint. The fusilier on the next page wears a light gray coat, vest and pants with a hint of light brown to it, "dry, dirty, light gray". I have painted no old Glory 15 gunners for any army yet, but am considering crewing the Austrian guns with two gunners and two fusiliers. I have too many Hanoverian figures, but they wear leggings – not boots – and would be useful as Austrian artillery fusiliers. I will experiment to mix my own!

By the way, what color do you folks use for the Austrian 7YW water flask cover? It seems a brown/grey also, darker than the artillery uniform.

GdeP

Was this the same brown coat (colour & style?) worn by some Grenzer regiments in this period?
donald

The Funken books and Pengal and Hurt indicate the artillerist wore brown, and the Netherlands artillerist a slightly different uniform, but still brown.

Osprey shows pearl grey. I happen to believe the uniform is brown during the SYW,,and the confusion comes from the differing names and faded colors over time,,which are a common source of error.

Besides,, brown looks better in my eyes…

ain't history wonderful?

anvil

I just did some more checking. Duffy says fawn (Rebraun) but gives no specific dates

Uniforms of the World, Knotel, says there is a gradual migration from about 1734 from grey to fawn and "wolfs" grey to dark brown. and by 1760 the coat,waistcoat and breeches were fawn. says, in the 1790's wolf's grey was the color.

To me,, fawn color is a more redish brown than grey or dark brown,,so thats what I decided to use,, and believe to be the proper colors.

"1720: Perlgrau as for the infantry

1748: White infantry uniforms with leather trousers if desired."

I'm curious in what would have been worn during the War of the Austrian Succession. I am certainly no expert, but is there a possibility that those uniforms did, in fact, belong to infantry detailed to help the trained gunners and not to the gunners themselves, as I believe was the case in a number of armies at the time?

Go out into the forest in summer, shoot a wolf and a fawn, skin them, put the pelts up at a hundred paces, then see if you can distinguish the colour…

Dr. Belckwenn is commenting the Bautzner picture manuscipt in a series of articles in the Zeitschrift für Heereskunde, in Nr. 192, year 1994 he states that in the beinning of the 18th century the artillery as well as the infantry had a greyish uniform, while during the years the coats of the infantry got lighter and lighter to end in white – those of the artillery go a darker or grey brownish hue, by no means they did wear white during the 7YW, also aside from this grey brown also fawn colour or doe brown colour was worn, varrying in the shade – lighter or darker.

Only the from the infantry commanded Infanterie Handlanger did wear white.

The artillery museum in St. Petersburg has a coat of an Austrian gunner of about 1790 which shows a lightish grey brown.

sorry the article is in the year 1964, Nr. 192, pages 43 following, in Zeitschrift für Heeres und Uniformkunde, for those who want to persue this matter further.

I have to add, the two prints I know about the Grenz Artillerie of the National Grenz Infantry, one of 1787 and the other of 1792 show white coats.

well in either event, for the Nap period the red brown has it visually. that washed out grey looks like just the best one could throw together and the bicorne so much more handsome. just a personal opinion.

What Nap period 1805 – 1815 , in case you include 1792 – 1802 – than I would disagree, see the orignal coat in Russia which shows a greyish brown, look at the amuscript in Brussels or also the Artatria series, variations are possible.

Grenz Artillery however – white coats.

Just to throw a Spaniard in the works, the drivers of the artillery train were, I gather, dressed in a grey uniform though I don't have much information yet.

'The new uniforms issued from 1806 onwards followed the styles for the infantry. The 1806 coat was now officially white for all divisions and was similar in appearance to the previous style but with much shorter tails hanging to just below the buttocks and the front of the coat closing to the waist with either eight or ten buttons according to the height of the wearer. The collar was slightly shorter than the 1798 coat to increase comfort and open at the throat with a wide V to expose the black stock worn beneath. The collar, cuffs, turnbacks and piping to the coat edges and the small squared tail pockets were of the straw yellow distinctive as previously and buttons were pewter, although some later coats may have had plain tin buttons instead of pewter to save costs. There are a number of variations recorded. Some coats after 1806 are shown with the turnbacks fully of the facing colour and could be with or without coloured piping to the front edges of the tunic. Although the coats were now officially white or Perlgrau, they are also depicted as being various shades of grey throughout the 1808-1814 period and some divisions attached to the Kavallerie-Artillerie appear to have worn a Rehbraun uniformrock with Strohgelb facings. Breeches were white or coat colour and worn with knee boots which now had screw-in spurs.'
(Rawkins, W J,The Austro-Hungarian Army 1792-1814, 2016)

As I understand it, most Fuhrwesen would be in white infantry pattern uniforms with Kaisergelb (Emperor yellow) facings and corsehut. Some craftsmen may have still been wearing light grey and the odd figure wearing the elusive rehbraun artillery coat might be appropriate. The shako was as slow or slower to be adopted as it was in the 'German' infantry.

Cheers,
John