"Hitting at extreme range" Topic

The theoretical ranges of big guns have always puzzled me. Since it seems that most of the Pacific War surface engagements were fought at night, at very close range, and most of the Atlantic War surface engagements involving big ships seemed to begin around 20-25k yards, I'm wondering:

Does anybody know if these guns with ranges upward of 40k could actually *hit* anything at those ranges?

Is there any recorded instance of a battleship hitting a target beyond, say, 30k yards?

The longest range gunnery hits ever recorded were both scored at about 13 miles (roughly 26,000 yards) in daylight – Warspite tagging the Giulio Cesare at Punto Stilo, and one of the German battlecruisers (Scharnhorst or Gneisnau) hitting the Glorious off Norway.

Of course, the planners who designed the BBs did so in the belief that there would be regular Jutland-like fleet actions, so that there would be a greater chance for long-range hits. But the best-laid plans, etc…

Define "target" if you are defining a ship based target like those described by Mserafin – then his information is very good. If you are talking land based targets – the answer is YES they could fire and hit land based targets out at maximum ranges – and they could fire long distances in-land – check out some of the naval landings in Korea with naval fire support – some of those shots/fire missions were at least 20 miles in land IIRC.

What is the chance that in the real world you'll ever be able to see a target at 40K yards? And if you can, you'd only be seeing the upper superstructure so how would you correct your shell falls? The target would move a significant amount between the time the shell was fired and it arrived, and tiny effects from wind and the firing ship's movement would make the circle of error pretty big.

According to this calculator

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The distance to the horizon (to the water, where you could see your shell splashes) from 100 feet up is 13.5 miles – the same as those mentioned above.

"What is the chance that in the real world you'll ever be able to see a target at 40K yards"

That's what spotting aircraft were for – to adjust fire at long ranges. Basically a flying forward observer, like those in Piper Cubs for the Army.

"The target would move a significant amount between the time the shell was fired and it arrived, and tiny effects from wind and the firing ship's movement would make the circle of error pretty big."

The large firing solution computers on most WW2 BBs could give a firing solution based on range, relative bearing, speed of target and speed of firing ship. Other factors would be corrected for by the aircraft spotter.

And, yes, the ship could move a long way while the shell was in the air, but the intended targets, other BBs, weren't exactly nimble little dancers.

Funny that noone has yet mentioned radar gunnery which the US were using very successfully by the end of the war.

Ken

As has been pointed out, nobody ship hit another, ever, outside of 26,000 yards. While in theory the guns could shoot that far, cross winds, target motionand speed, even humidity conspired against a hit.

Hard to overcome that absolute fact that nobody ever hit a moving target at even 30,000 yards, much less 40,000.

It is interesting to note that in 1944, two US battleships did fire on the Japanese destroyer NOWAKE at ranges well beyond 30,000 yards. IOWA fired 40 rounds and NEW JERSEY 18 rounds at between 33,500 and 39,000 yards. IOWA opened at 35,000yds and ceased at 39,000yds. She fired 40 rounds HC in 8-gun salvos, straddling on the first salvo. NOWAKI altered course after the first salvo and the next two were fired during this turn. After the third salvo landed, NOWAKI disappeared from radar and optics and the last two salvos went out in generated mode from the rangekeeper. Even so, both ships reported being able to see the splashes (but not NOWAKI) out to 39,000 yards, on radar and optically.

NEW JERSEY opened fire first with a range of roughly 33,500 in 3 and 2 gun salvos using director fire, optical deflection and radar range in spotting. She fired 18 rounds of HC, and was unable to discern straddles (the glare induced by the target bearing in relation to the position of the sun made visual spotting of the target extremely difficult), however, the carrier plane spotting for her reported several straddles, the first being on the fourth salvo.

Did anyone every calculate circle of error sizes for big guns at these ranges under "normal" conditions?

Aside from the very valid accuracy questions raised above didn't they try and go for plunging fire when fighting armoured ships, in an attempt to minimize the angle of attack on the armour and maximize the area of the ship available to hit. I know mortars and howitzers were popular coast defence weapons for that reason. I assume there would an ideal range based on things like, type of target (a lightly armoured destroyer could be hit at long range since even a near miss could do some damage), spotting conditions, sea conditions and so on. Maximum range would be more like an indication of the guns effective range.

You are correct Jimmy. In fact there is a term called "immunity zone" the range at which you can penetrate the enemy but can't be penetrated in turn. How you were ever supposed to be able to use it in practice I don't know, but shooting to hit deck armor meant lower chances to hit, more chances for damage from each shell…

*Disclaimer* This was from a History Channel show *End Disclaimer* But they claimed the Hood was either closing or opening range (can't remember) with the Bismark because of the range/angle of impact factor and was, unfortunately, at exactly the wrong range when hit. Hence the penetration and catastrophic explosion.

I remember now. By closing range, the incoming shells would be on a flat trajectory and strike her thickest armor. But she was just about head on to the Bismark and almost within the safe range when she took the fatal hit(s).

Wasn't the whole point of Battlecruisers that they weren't supposed to fight Battleships? They were cruiser destroyers (and probably should have been named that).

Here are 2 parts of a study on shot dispersion I found.
about midway down the 1st article is a plot of where BB sized shells landed on the target sled.

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In fact there is a term called "immunity zone" the range at which you can penetrate the enemy but can't be penetrated in turn.

This doesn't have anything to do with what the enemy can do to you. It means neither the target's deck can be penetrated to the engineering/magazines nor the main belt can be penetrated to the same regions by the attackers shells.

more discussion in the IZ at
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