"Question about British WW2 roundels" Topic

Why were there 3 different ones on the same plane? Side of fuselsage, top of wing, and bottom of wing.
Or, am I getting it wrong? I am ready to slap some on my Hurricanes for a game Saturday.

ALERT! ALERT! ALERT!

There was a lot of variation in RAF roundels during the war. Even more in the Commonwealth air forces. It depends very much on what year in which theater, sometimes on what squadron in which month.

I'm guessing your Hurricanes are for the Battle of Britain. (Sigh.) There were several different cammo and marking schemes used during the BoB. Most of the variations had to do with the undersurfaces. Black/white (or black/aluminum) and sky undersurfaces were both used, both schemes with and without underwing roundels. I think the underwing roundels, where used, were all blue-white-red. I think all fuselage roundels were the yellow-blue-white-red style, and all the upper wing roundels were blue-red with no white.

As for when the spinners went from black to sky, when the red-white-blue fin flashes were introduced, when they added the sky fuselage band…urrrr…buy a book.

My aircraft have blue-red on top surfaces, blue-white-red on underwings, and yellow-blue-white-red on fuselage.

And I am OK with that. ;-)

w.

Basically the colors as are stated by the prevoius responses. The colors didn't change through the war , just the thickness of each color circle. The white tended to get smaller as teh war went on, they started equal.

OK, complicated topic, as there were at least 7 major variations of RAF roundels, and several minor ones. That said, guessing that Battle Of Britain is indeed your main interest, yes, most planes would have three types on them. Under the wings is the "Type A" which is the classic red/white/blue used before the war, when RAF aircraft were typically in a plain metallic or dope finish. The other two types stemmed from the introduction of camouflage, with one variation being to make the roundel more visible (the addition of the yellow outer roundel to make the "Type A1" normally used on the fuselage sides, while the other was to make it less visible (removing the white to create the red and blue "Type B" roundel used on top of the wings.) Why they'd want to make some markings more visible and others less *on the same aircraft* is a minor mystery, but presumably it was felt that camouflage against enemy looking down onto the aircraft was more important.

Dom.

ecaminis: The colors didn't change through the war…

Actually, in the Pacific theater there were several major variants thatg all 'got the red out', to avoid being mistaken for hinomaru.

Yep; there were also roundel and bar varieties, especially for RNZAF and FAA, who used US aircraft, often supplied with USAAF markings. Additionally the white was often replaced with light blue in the Far East. That said, the comment more or less holds true in Europe.

Dom.

Dom, I think it's because looking up at the sky you're probably going to see the plane whatever is painted on it (unless the sun is in your eyes). Looking down on it set against a patchwork of fields and such is a different matter.

Hurricanes for BoB and FoW North Africa.

Why they'd want to make some markings more visible and others less *on the same aircraft* is a minor mystery,

which I had hoped would be answered.

I am painting these days one of my early war Hurris in an insignia variant that had yellow around the top wing roundels (yellow/blue/white/red center), and the blue/red center smaller, on the sides.

Check it out at Wing's Palette:
Hurricane Mk.I
Unit: 43 Sqn, RAF
Serial: FT-C (L1592)
wp.scn.ru/en/ww2/f/79/9/2/49

By the way, on that right underside in white and left underside in black "camo": What was the purpose? Friend or foe easy ID? Or some impressionistic or expressionistic art color theory, dazzle camo, etc.? I've always wanted to know that, because it's pretty obvious that the black wouldn't blend in with any daytime sky. Even in Britain!

Rolando

Yes, black and white for IFF with the flak gunners.

The Germans used a similar scheme for their nightfighters in WWII also.

Later in the war, the FW-190D's flying topcover for the Me-262's at their bases used bright red, with white pinstripes. One of my all-time favorite schemes to look at, but not to paint.

At the Munich Crisis in late 1938, camouflaged aircraft had been ordered to have the upper surfaces finished with the blue and red roundels that had been used on night bombers since the Great War. However, after a couple of incidents in late 1939 when RAF types were mistaken for the enemy, the roundels on the fuselage side were changed to the red white and blue version to make them easier to identify. Fighters were only to have underwing roundels (red, white and blue) if they were operating over France.

In May 1940, it was decided that further enhancement of the fuselage national markings was required and the yellow ring was added around the roundel and a red white and blue flash on the tail fin. As all fighters were likely to be operating over France, they were all to carry red white and blue underwing roundels, with the one on the port wing to have a yellow outline to separate it from the Night main colour.

Underwing roundels were dropped in June, when the wing undersides were changes to Sky (see below), then brought back in August for quick recognition in dogfights.

Pajaro – the Night and White undersides were done as an easy recognition feature for British fighters. However, it was found to be too highly visible and was replaced by Sky in June 1940 (although shortages of Sky at first led to the use of other similar colours like Eau-de-Nil and BS381 Sky Blue, as well as similarly named ones like Air Ministry Sky Blue and Sky Grey).

The Hurricane you linked to is a very odd scheme – my guess would be that it is actually from the period in late 1938 when the roundels were changed from the yellow, blue, white and red type (as on the upper wings) to the blue and red type (as on the fuselage). However, as the FT codes weren't used by 43 Squadron until September 1939, this wouldn't seem to be correct. I'd be very interested to see any actual evidence for this scheme existing.

Agreed on that Hurri – downright blooming odd. Would probably want to see a photo or a first-hand account before I copied that one….

While we're looking at it, what are those black bars at the wing roots? Is that where the crew can put their feet, getting in and out?

Oops! Too late, Dom! :)

IIRC yes the black bands on the upper wing roots are to indicate where to stand without damaging the wing.

I have seen a photo of a similar hurricane but with the "dazzle" undersides painted in sky blue and black, but NOT split down the middle. The blue extended across the centre section (where the undercarriage is) before the black took over. The photo did not show the underside of the tailplane so I don't know how that was painted. I'd guess at all blue.
The roundel on the black wing (type A1 or similar) differed to the blue wing (regular type A). Both roundels were the same size so obviously the A1 had thinner rings. It was a Mk1 Hurricane, but I can't remeber much more as I really only remember the oddity of it
I would suspect that there was a degree of experimenting and improvising going on!

cheers

A little late for a game this weekend, but assuming 1/144 – 1/160 aircraft, get ahold of some of Norm's decals at Scale Specialties ss-sms.com He's got the right roundels – and includes a sheet to tell you which ones to use. He is also the only person to get that peculiar "sky" color – used on European theater RAF fighter call letters – to print the right color.

Wyatt

"He is also the only person to get that peculiar "sky" color – used on European theater RAF fighter call letters – to print the right color."

I'd have to add the caveat that as a practical matter many actual RAF squadrons didn't use the "right sky colour" – the official sky has a definite hint of green to it, but duck egg blue, very pale greys, and even straight white were also used, so don't get *too* hung up on it.

Dom (Who at the moment can't do very pale colours, and is therefore jealous; my lettering will have to be white until I can afford to contract out….)

Gnu2000 – that Hurricane would be from the winter of 1940/41, when the RAF decided to go back to having the port lower wing finished in Night as a recognition feature, but keep the rest of the underside Sky. The port roundel was to have a thin Yellow outline to make it stand out (the Blue of the roundel being quite dark, and Night being a very dark blue-grey (mixed from carbon black and ultramarine pigments) rather than a true black).

At the same time, the spinner and an 18 inch band round the rear fuselage were to be painted in duck egg blue (Air Ministry Sky Blue seems to have been used, as there is a contrast in the colour with the Sky undersides in many photos).

This scheme was introduced on 27th November 1940. The port wing reverted to Sky on 22nd April 1941, while the spinners and fuselage bands seem to have been changed to Sky from 15th August 1941 when fighters had the overall scheme changed from the Temperate Land Scheme (of Dark Earth and Dark Green) that had been in use since 1937 to the new Day Fighter Scheme of Ocean Grey and Dark Green (with the undersides being changed to Medium Sea Grey at the same time). Squadron code letters were changed from Medium Sea Grey to Sky at the same time.