"Saxons, Romano - Brits, Vikes?" Topic

Looking for any books that list battles, campaigns that took place between the Saxons, Romano – Brits, Vikings, Scots, Etc between the 6th and 10th centuries. Thanks

Well, there are primary sources: Nennius, Bede, Glidas and one other that eludes my memory at the moment. All of these are available online.

Battles of the Dark Ages by Peter Marren.

John Morris "The Age of Arthur" to be taken with a large grain of salt.

When I shuffle off this mortal coil, an event which I pray will not be too distant, I would be pleased to think that I would be remembered for a work as *good* as Morris's "Age of Arthur". Never having had much inclination to fight the battles necessary to be published in that way, it won't happen for me. But Morris's accomplishment is not one to take lightly

Morris was an imaginative writer who did more than most of his contemporaries in pulling together diverse sources on early Britain. If he drew conclusions too boldly, fine; it's better than not having explored in these directions at all. His legacy lies in having opened doors for other, leeser men to look inside; and if they then find no Arthur in those rooms, they can shut the door once again. It's better than having never looked.

As I am so misguided as to think highly of his work, I will not confuse the issue by suggesting something perhaps more appropriate for the broader period in question.

Allen

Yes, it is fashionable nowadays to dismiss Morris; and yes, I am tired of it.

Allen

L I B R A R Y anyone remember that word ?

Allen,

As wargames inspiration Morris is quite a good read. If his historical interpretations were perhaps painted with too broad a brush the same can be said of many others in many eras.

And I did still recomend Morris. He has gathered a lot of data into one very readable tome.

He is not as far off the mark I think as Bjorn Kurten was with the cave bear "cult"

It ought to be borne in mind that anyone who refers to little metal and plastic Norsemen as "Vikes" will get no good service out of them when he commands them, but they will roll well when fighting against him. They hate the term.

Alistair Moffat's "Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms" places the lad squarely at Trimontium, in the Eildon Hills. I love all the local authors who confidently assert that he could only be from their neck of the woods.

Don't you know that libraries are frightening places? They have not only books--far too many to absorb--but often also journals; sometimes both books and journals are even in furrin' languages. And librarians! Ware librarians.

Allen

>>> It ought to be borne in mind that anyone who refers to little metal and plastic Norsemen as "Vikes" will get no good service out of them when he commands them, but they will roll well when fighting against him. They hate the term.

The same goes for "Punes" when referring to one's Carthaginians.

Unfortunately, substituting "Lybians" for "Libyans", and confusing Nubians and Numidians, are pretty much standard practice in wargaming circles these days.

Allen

I think rather highly of Morris' AGE OF ARTHUR as well, in spite of the critics. History is too important to be left to historians.

"Don't you know that libraries are frightening places? They have not only books--far too many to absorb--but often also journals; sometimes both books and journals are even in furrin' languages. And librarians! Ware librarians."

Actually, its spelled and pronounced "libarians," we work in a "libary." (At least, that's what I say to off my coworkers.)

"confusing Nubians and Numidians…"

What's a Nubian?

Sorry, it's been a long day of libarificating and I just watched Chasing Amy this weekend. I'll shut up now.

Historians do their thing; that's fine. But it seems to me (and this is just my opinion, so throw it out the window if it doesn't grab you) that over the past thirty or forty years, historians have been molded to put undue weight on material "facts", whether they come from traditional archaeology, or pollen analysis, or statistical analysis of crops and fields, barrel production, disease and death, or what have you.

It is language that especially makes man unique. Language is important. Some of us even get upset about it when you jerk it around and abuse it! It has power, and perhaps most so because it is also the bearer of Memory. Few scholars have the linguistic breadth of vision to make connections through words and names where none were previously seen. There aren't many Tolkiens in the world. Ian Russell Lowell, a "simple" cleric, has done fascinating things with the Hittites (as SOA members will know). Morris did the same for Britain.

Is there a trap in looking too hard to make linguistic connections? Of course. But it's something not to be overlooked while one focuses on ring forts and tesselated pavements. Morris gave us that special insight into the period.

Allen

Chesterton says, in THE EVERLASTING MAN iirc, that it is all very well for the archaeologist to tell us that a primitive tribe had a wolf as a totem. But what we want to know, Chesterton continued, was whether a man whose totem is a wolf feels more like a werewolf, or like a man being chased by a werewolf.

Indeed, Part One, chapter 3.

There is very little value in talking about totems unless we have some feeling of what it really felt like to have a totem. Granted that they had totems and we have no totems; was it because they had more fear of animals or more familiarity with animals? Did a man whose totem was a wolf feel like a were-wolf or like a man running away from a were-wolf? Did be feel like Uncle Remus about Brer Wolf or like St. Francis about his brother .the wolf, or like Mowgli about his brothers the wolves? Was a totem a thing like the British lion or a thing like the British bull-dog? Was the worship of a totem like the feeling of blacks about Mumbo jumbo, or of children about jumbo? I have never read any book of folklore, however learned, that gave me any light upon this question, which I think by far the most important one.

Chesterton has small use for "economic history" or the tendency of professors to care more about the bone they found than about the humanity of its one-time owner. This would extend to all over-emphasis on "facts."

>Alistair Moffat's "Arthur and the Lost Kingdoms" places the lad squarely at Trimontium, in the Eildon Hills. I love all the local authors who confidently assert that he could only be from their neck of the woods.

That's a really enjoyable read, to be taken with a generous pinch of salt. As I read it, I felt he was adding 2 and 2 and getting around 7; however his enthusiasm transmits to the reader and I ended up painting quite a few Northern British cavalry on the back of it!

I stayed in the area with my family in 2006 (partly because of reading the book) and it is very beautiful; especially the three hills, from which there's a fantastic view. There's a charming little Roman museum in Melrose with lots of displays about Trimontium, armour you can try on, etc.

Incidently he has Arthur about 10 miles East of Trimontium, in Kelso, on a fortified island in the Tweed.

Simon

"It ought to be borne in mind that anyone who refers to little metal and plastic Norsemen as "Vikes" will get no good service out of them when he commands them, but they will roll well when fighting against him. They hate the term."

And I was brought up to believe the term "Brit" was an insult, be it Romano Brit or anything else.

The fact that the gutter press like "The Sun" has established "Brit" as common parlance just shows the contempt its proprietors have for the people who buy it.

But to be helpful, you could try the Anglo Saxon Chronicle omacl.org/Anglo Start at year 495.

"Vikes" is better than "Nappys" which provokes all the wrong images for Brits!

If you liked Morris – try this … Arthur W. Wade-Evans. The Emergence of England and Wales. 2nd ed. Cambridge: Heffer, 1959. Great breadth of material digested to show the common heritage rather than diferences between peoples of Britain. Morris just took it too far, many small errors and some big leaps of faith that just made his whole thesis untenable. A la 'the Holy Blood and the Holy grail'. It shows how clever Geoffrey of Monmouth actually was to weave a credible story from many traditions. Story telling is not history and archaeology is not history. The interpretation is the problem. An archaeologist friend of mine working at south shields roman fort had a lovely example. A broken tile with 'Ar…' inscribed on it from latest roman date c.400. It allowed her to write a nice satirical piece using the tile as concrete evidence to support local identification of the fort as Arthur's base of operations in the north of england.Of course glossing over the fact that the fort was named Arbeia in roman times :)
Being a northerner myself I am happy for any mythical hero figures to be identified as originating thereup. It was those damned southerners who kept letting the invaders in after all. Now what have the Beaker Folk ever done for us ?…..

Some suggest that Vortigern was from what is now Northumbria: embrace him!

(Whether he was or not, the invaders settled there as quickly as anywhere…)

Allen

"Vikes" is better than "Nappys" which provokes all the wrong images for Brits!"

That is a diar personal comment. Was it made by someone who is pampered?

(..another 100 years according to the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. )We dont want Vortigern up here though, definitely another southerner.

Best quick resources: Age of Arthur and Shieldwall from Warhammer Historical. (WAB)

SAGA publishing has a scenario book with battles from the Dark Ages.

There are a few DBM scenario books listing dark age battles.

The Revenge Rules had a Normas Supplement listing a number of late dark age battles.

There was a campaign system entitled Eric the Dread dealing with the Viking conquest of England circa 1016.

The glossies (Wargames Illustrated and Miniature Wargames) often have articles and scenarios based on the dark ages. One of them actually had a listing of dark age battles.

Most historical sources are completely worthless. They do not have the data you want to make scenarios. There is a reason they call it the "dark ages." We are not even sure who the commanders were at Hastings. We are not even sure where most of the battlefields are located. Most of the game scenarios are made up of whole cloth.

I recommend Arthur: Roman Britain's Last Champion, written by Beram Saklatvala

Geoffrey of Monmouth, revisionist Norman though he was, is very entertaining in his own right. But, he's also useful as a source for campaigns – or Shakespearean plays if you plan on writing any…

Here is a list of sources I used in making some scenarios for BB DBA back in the day, they include fiction, non fiction, articles etc… too tired to cull the list but may be some help

Arthur and the Anglo Saxon Wars. David Nicolle, 1984 Osprey (#154)
Cambridge Illustrated Atlas of Warfare: Middle Ages, Hooper & Bennet, 1996
Conquest of England, Eric Linklater, 1966, Doubleday & Company
Early Medieval Ireland, Daibhi O' Croinin, 1995, Longman History of Ireland
The Fury of the Northmen, John Marsden, 1993, St. Martin's Press
Historical Atlas of the Vikings, John Haywood, 1995, Penguin
History of the Vikings, Gwyn Jones, 1968, Oxford
Irish Battles, Hayes-McCoy, 1969, Barnes & Nobles
Kings and Vikings, P.H. Sawyer, 1994, Barnes & Nobles
Lion Of Ireland, Morgan LLywellyn, 1981, Tor
Medieval Historical Battles 732 to 1485, Peter Sides, 1993, Gosling
Medieval Ireland, Michael Richter, 1995, St. Martin's Press
Medieval Warfare Sourcebook, David Nicolle, 1995, Arms and Armour
Neglected Heroes, Terry Gore, 1995, Praeger
Njals Saga, Magnus Magnusson translated by Hermann Palson, 1960, Penguin
"Stern Sudden Thunder Motion" Guy Halsall, Miniature Wargames 1986
The Viking Art of War, Paddy Griffith, 1995, Greenhill Books

The Age of Arthur, John Morris, 1973, Scribners,
Enemy of God, Bernard Cornwell, St. Martin's Press, 1996
Early Medieval Ireland, Daibhi O' Croinin, 1995, Longman History of Ireland.
Medieval Ireland, Michael Richter, 1995, St. Martin's press
Arthur's Britain, Leslie Alcock, 1971, Penguin
Arthur and the Anglo Saxon Wars. David Nicolle, 1984 Osprey (#154)
Medieval Historical Battles 732 to 1485, Peter Sides, 1993, Gosling
The Celts, Nora Chadwick, 1971, Penguin

Well, The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle gives this list for part of that period: link