""The Duel" - Corvette vs. U-Boat in the North Atlantic" Topic

We finally had a chance to conclude the battle we started a week ago, earlier today.

The report below, is listed in its entirety. We hope you enjoy it.

"The Duel" – Action Stations Battle Report
Canadian Flower Class Corvette vs. Type VIIC U-Boat
Copyright 2007
Robert G. Kent, Jr.

Forces
1 x Canadian Flower Class Corvette, HMCS Moosejaw, commanded by Lt. A. Harvey
versus
1 x Type VIIC U-Boat, U-372, commanded by OberleutnantzurSee Friedrich Weber

Weather Conditions – poor, during the winter of 1943, in the North Atlantic, with limited visibility, due to stormy seas, low clouds, and fog – maximum visibility range during the day is 1,400 yds. Air cover provided by long-range patrol planes is not available, due to the poor visibility, and low cloud ceiling.

A Canadian Flower class corvette, HMCS Moosejaw, commanded by Lt. A. Harvey has been escorting an eastbound convoy south of Greenland for some time now, and numerous u-boats have been in contact for the past few days. Several vessels from the convoy have been sunk, and just last night the Moosejaw ran down a Huff-Duff contact, and forced a u-boat to submerge, and then pounded her for a while with several depth charge attacks.

Unfortunately, due to the heavy seas, and challenging conditions, the outcome of last night's attack could not be confirmed.

U-372, a Type VIIC boat has been shadowing the allied convoy for the past few days. As darkness approached, she reported the position, course, and speed of the convoy to B-Dienst, as required by standing orders, and alerted other u-boat commanders in the area that she intended to make a night, surface attack. Shortly afterwards, while attempting to close on the vessels, in darkness, from the starboard quarter, an allied escort vessel was spotted, rapidly closing in from the port bow, so OberleutnantzurSee Friedrich Weber chose to dive in order to evade the corvette's attack.

The enemy escort pounded them for several hours with depth charges, before departing the scene, but fortunately, no serious damage was done to his submarine.

Due to the heavy seas, the convoy was able to make little headway overnight, so U-372 was able to easily catch up and is now positioned to make another try, this time during the poor visibility conditions afforded by the heavy storm, during daylight hours. Her rendezvous with the convoy was greatly aided by reports from the other u-boats in the area, who are also stalking the convoy, as well. Standard procedure is for the first boat in contact with a convoy to report in to B-Dienst, so that other u-boats from the local, and other more distant wolfpacks can be vectored in on the enemy vessels.

ObltzS Weber has decided that he dislikes being pounded by depth charges from above, without the ability to reply in kind effectively against his enemy. He has decided that this time he will fight it out on the surface, where he believes that the superior speed and maneuverability of his submarine, the expertise of his gun crews, and the fact that he has torpedoes which can be used against his enemy, give him the edge in these heavy seas, not to mention his confidence that under his excellent leadership, his superbly trained crew cannot fail. Once the enemy escort vessel has been sunk, he believes he will be able to easily move in to launch an unmolested attack on the cargo ships, with virtual immunity, and then to dive to safety, before the other escort vessels can react, since they are stretched very thin.

It should be interesting to see if Weber's arrogance will be proved accurate, or not. No doubt, he is staking both his life, and the lives of his crew members on their success.

Once again, an enemy corvette is sighted off of the port bow by U-372's lookouts, atop the spray-washed conning tower. Weber thinks that it seems as if the allied escorts are omniscient, and know just where to look for him, which is a bit unsettling, especially since no radar signal was detected by the Naxos receiver atop the conning tower. Maybe its effectiveness has been compromised by the heavy rains, and continuous sea-spray.

Moosejaw is closing at her maximum speed of 16 knots, on a direct bearing to the submarine, bobbing like a cork in the heavy seas, while the U-Boat is cruising at 12 knots, in order to conserve fuel, and knifing through the large, storm-tossed, gray-green waves. The corvette's crew has once again obtained a strong Huff-Duff signal, and is steaming quickly to investigate it. Spray is flying everywhere, soaking the crews of both vessels, and chilling them to the bone.

Nevertheless, Weber quickly orders his crew manning the 88mm gun to open fire. Shortly afterwards, and before his gun crew can respond to his orders on the drenched foredeck, he sees a flash, and puff of smoke from the forward gun on the Flower class escort vessel, in the distance. Lt. Harvey's 4" gun crew is first off the mark, getting off the first salvo in the battle. The range is approximately 1,400 yds. when the initial salvoes are fired from each vessel, and both miss wide of their targets.

The corvette jinks slightly to the right, and then back to the left. Obviously, her commander is a bit paranoid about torpedoes, and wants to sidestep any "fish" that may be in the water, and unseen, but the maneuvering is also making it difficult for his gun crew to line up on the u-boat.

ObltzS Weber decides not to launch a torpedo, or torpedoes at this distance, towards the corvette, since it is presenting its bow aspect to him, and no doubt, the vessel will be expecting them, and may sight his "eels" in the water. Besides, he must conserve most of his torpedoes for more valuable targets, but he is not against launching one if the corvette's captain makes a mistake at close range, and presents him with a promising opportunity to send her to the bottom.

As the vessels close on one another rapidly, another salvo is fired from each main gun, and both manage to hit home, doing some minor hull damage to both the u-boat, and the corvette, and knocking out the starboard 20mm cannon on board the u-boat's conning tower.

Weber orders his u-boat turned sharply to the left, to open up his flank, in order to permit all of his guns to bear on the target, and to keep the corvette from closing the range too quickly, but all of this maneuvering is really just a ruse to draw in the allied vessel, since he hopes to use his superior speed and maneuverability to gain the advantage over his opponent, in order to sink her with one well-placed stern tube torpedo shot.

He rationalizes that he can always dive, if that doesn't work, and elude the corvette, just as he did on the previous night.

The Moosejaw curves a bit more to port (left), and then turns back to starboard, in a long, continuous turn, hoping to be able to dodge any "fish" that may already be in the water, heading his way. If hit by one, the small escort will almost certainly be sunk immediately, and in these frigid waters, behind the convoy, there is little hope of rescue, or survival for his crew members.

Meanwhile, U-372 turns back hard to starboard, so the two vessels are now only 1,150 yds. apart, and just short of being roughly abeam of one another, on reciprocal headings.
They are both trying to unmask all of their guns, in order to be able to bring maximum firepower to bear on their targets.

The Moosejaw's crew fires again, resulting in a lucky hit on the sub's hydroplanes, preventing her from diving, and doing more damage to her hull, as well as causing a slight fire on board. A hit from the aft 2 Pdr. results in a machinery hit on the sub, reducing her speed by 50%. Due to previous flooding, the u-boat's maximum speed is
now reduced to 7 knots.

The expletives from ObltzS Weber are now flying fast and furious, and the young men in the conning tower with him learn many new, colorful words to add to their salty vocabulary. Weber seems even more focused and energized than ever now, despite the unlucky hits to his vessel, and they are confident in his ability to defeat their Canadian foes.

The 88mm and 37mm gun crews on the u-boat are inspired by their commander's leadership, and intensity in battle, and their aim is true. The 88mm shells strike home on the corvette, doing more hull damage to her, and knocking out the vessels starboard, bridge mounted 20mm cannon. In addition, the 37mm shells strike home in the same area, hitting the corvette's helmsman, and causing the vessel to have to move straight ahead, on her current bearing at a critical moment in the battle.

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At this point, we have to adjourn for intermission, but will conclude the write-up in about a week, once we are able to complete our fight. I can't wait to see how this little skirmish turns out. I hope you have enjoyed the battle account so far.

It's time for a nice hot shower, and a warm cup of hot chocolate, to try to stave off the chilling effects of the North Atlantic, and to get rid of the salty grime on my face, caused by the heavy sea-spray over the foredeck.

The above battle was fought in about 30 – 45 minutes of play-time, using Action Stations rules.

Please feel free to e-mail me at the address below, if you have any questions about the rules, scenario, or the miniatures we used for the battle.

Best regards,

Rob
Topgun Marketing LLC
topgunace111 AT yahoo DOT com

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As we resume the battle in the North Atlantic, in early 1943, the Canadian corvette Moosejaw continues out of control, moving straight ahead for only a short time, before another crew member is able to take over the wheel, and help continue with the fight, since her helmsman was just hit by enemy gunfire. Her aft 2 Pdr. blasts away at the u-boat, hitting her conning tower, and knocking away the radio aerial and Naxos radar detector, while just narrowly missing her commander, and lookouts.

The 37mm gun crew behind the conning tower on U-372 fires again, and hits the corvette, doing more damage to her hull. Her speed is now reduced by 3 knots, to a maximum speed of 13 knots.

Now that the wheel has been taken over by seaman Gordon, the corvette is ordered turned hard to starboard, in order to permit all of her guns to bear once again on the u-boat, which has moved to her rear, and is moving away on a roughly reciprocal heading. This maneuver unmasks the forward 4" main gun of the Moosejaw, permitting the crew to fire again on the u-boat, hitting her heavily aft, and causing another machinery hit to her engines, resulting in her going dead in the water, and doing more damage to her hull.

Her aft 2 Pdr. crew also aims well, and does additional damage to the u-boat's engines, wrecking them, and preventing the possibility of future repairs. U-372 is now adrift at sea.

However, she is not totally out of the fight, and while her port, conning tower mounted 20mm cannon, and aft 37mm crews are not able to obtain hits on the Canadian escort vessel, her commander, ObltzS Weber has been tracking the movements of the corvette very carefully, and he orders a torpedo to be fired at the escort vessel, from her aft, single rear tube. U-372's forward 88mm gun cannot bear on the pursuing escort vessel, since the conning tower is in the way.

The corvette is expected to continue turning to starboard, in order to pursue the sub, and to close the range with her, so Weber has his aft torpedo crew adjust the gyro angle accordingly, to take this into account. Weber barks the command "Los!!!", and the Type G7e electric torpedo is away.

The corvette continues turning to starboard, firing her aft 37mm cannon again, and her crew manages to get a lucky hit on the submarine's aft torpedo tube, but unbeknownst to them, this occurs shortly after the enemy "eel" has been launched towards their vessel. The forward 4" gun crew is reloading, and the starboard 20mm cannon cannot fire, as it was knocked out previously by enemy fire, which hit the Moosejaw's bridge, on the starboard side.

As the Moosejaw continues turning to starboard, ObltzurSee Weber is very pleased with his torpedo launch, despite the heavy pitching motion of his submarine, in the rough seas. The enemy corvette is moving just as he had expected, and his "eel" is running true. It appears to be on target to hit the vessel shortly, which is just inside of 600 yards range now.

The Moosejaw's 4" main gun roars again, and its shell strikes the u-boat once more, causing more hull damage, and knocking out the sub's aft 37mm cannon.

Just prior to the above incident, U-372 fires effectively again too, with her quick-firing 37mm cannon, obtaining a hit on the corvette's hull, which penetrates through to her boilers, reducing her speed by 50%, to 8 knots maximum.

On the following turn, neither vessels' gun crews are able to secure any hits, but the torpedo is nearing its target, which has continued to turn sharply to starboard. She is able to turn even tighter now, due to her slowed speed, which brings her forward arc into the path of the torpedo that is still running true.

Weber's aim is on target, as the G7e torpedo speeds toward the corvette, which is still turning to starboard through the gray-green water, in order to close in on the u-boat. Unfortunately, due to the damage, and the reduced radius of turn of the now much slower Moosejaw, the torpedo just misses impacting her hull (the torpedo launch template was positioned superbly, requiring a die roll to determine if the torpedo impacted the target or not. A 4 or less on 1D10 is required to hit with the torpedo, due to attacking now through the forward arc of the target vessel, instead of her starboard beam, and the range. The die roll result is a 5, resulting in a near miss).

Lt. Harvey, and his crew aboard the Moosejaw are relieved to have successfully, and inadvertantly dodged the enemy torpedo, with their last-minute maneuver. If they had not turned as tightly as they did, when they did, their little vessel would most likely be sinking toward the briny depths of the North Atlantic.

The corvette fires again, and some of the crew on board the foredeck of the submarine's 88mm gun are wounded, or killed.

The u-boat also suffers a minor explosion, due to the fire on board, which she has not been able to put out, resulting in more damage to her residual hull capacity. She is now at greater than 50% damage.

The Moosejaw continues firing on the U-372, which is dead in the water now, as the corvette continues turning to starboard, in order to bring all of her guns to bear on her port side. She is now close to crossing the stern of the u-boat, at point-blank range. More hull hits are obtained, and U-372 only has one-third of her hull damage points remaining after the last salvo.

Meanwhile, the Moosejaw's damage control parties have managed to make some temporary repairs to her boilers, so her speed is considerably increased again.

At this point in the battle, with all of her guns that can bear knocked out, her engines destroyed, and heavy flooding of her hull continuing, ObltzurSee Weber orders U-372's crew to abandon ship. To continue to fight on is pointless, since the enemy corvette has closed to point-blank range, and there is nothing further he can do to effectively fight on.

Weber's crew hoists the white flag, and Lt. Harvey orders his gun crews aboard the corvette to cease firing.

Only about a dozen of the crew of U-372 are rescued by the Moosejaw, due to the difficult sea conditions, and the heavy damage and casualties she suffered from gunfire. The scuttling of the submarine by her crew is effective, preventing the Canadians from obtaining valuable intelligence information that could be used for the continuing fight in the North Atlantic, on the convoy routes. ObltzurSee Weber was lost with his boat, while trying to assist other wounded personnel to escape, before she sunk.

Moosejaw returns to her escort station at the rear, starboard quarter of the convoy, a short while later. Her assigned escort mission is not over yet, and night is coming again. The surviving enemy u-boat crewmen are locked away below decks. Based upon the radio signals being picked up close by from other enemy submarines, it looks to be a rather busy night once again.

HMCS Moosejaw suffered damage equal to 20% of her hull points, so her maximum speed was reduced to 13 knots. She survived the convoy escort mission, and offloaded her captives in England, so that she would be unhindered with enemy personnel on her return trip to Halifax, Nova Scotia.

We hope that you have enjoyed this fictitious little skirmish in the North Atlantic. I know we did.

Best regards,

Rob
Topgun Marketing LLC
topgunace111 AT yahoo DOT com

Very nice!

So…was Weber a fool to fight it out on the surface?

I'd say just about any sub captain would have been. It makes for an interesting 'what-if' game, but not something a sub captain would seriously consider, imo.

(This is the point someone with proof of some historical occurrence jumps in, I'm sure).

Otherwise, sounds like a very fun game – I'll have to get around to digging my copy out and setting up a game or three.

Cheers.

Now do it with the Enterprise and a Romulan war bird….(:o)

When I read the title, I was wondering what a car was doing in the ocean!

Other than that, I really have nothing to add to this thread.

"So…was Weber a fool to fight it out on the surface"?

It appears so, based upon the result.

Clearly, the odds were stacked against the u-boat commander and his crew, which if even moderately damaged, would be at a severe disadvantage against a surface vessel.

Now, if the battle had been a bit later, and he had homing torpedoes, or better luck, things might have gone the other way. Of course, if they had been able to knock out some of Moosejaw's bigger guns early in the battle, that would have been a big help too.

Weber probably should have turned into the corvette, and used his bow tubes to launch more torpedoes (at least two), for a better chance of sinking the escort vessel, but we assumed he didn't want to waste too many of his valuable "eels" on such a little ship, since he wanted to save them for bigger game.

We decided to try out the battle between the two on a whim, since occasionally they did engage in battle on the surface, though usually at night. Since their armament was virtually identical, with one 3.5" or 4" gun forward, a 20mm cannon on each side of the bridge/conning tower, and 37mm's aft, we thought it would be a decent matchup. The Flower class corvette has more hull points, but the sub has torpedoes, which roughly balances out, as long as the u-boat doesn't get a lucky hit with one of those.

The u-boat commander assumed with his superior speed and maneuverability, that he could just dive away, if things got dicey. He didn't count on the Moosejaw getting a lucky hit on his diving planes almost immediately, preventing that from being a useful tactic (turn 5 of the game, and only the 3rd turn of firing). The gun crew on the corvette had to roll a 12, on 2D6 to do that, and of course, they did. They deserve a medal.

Of no consequence whatsoever, the movie this is loosely based on is 1957's "The Enemy Below" link which was, Dave Jackson alluded to, copied for an episode of Star Trek (TOS). Mark Leonard (later Spock's father, Sarek) played the Romulan commander.

Wyatt

I've done a bit (to be fair, a lot) of research on the Atlantic campaign as my dad was on Heather.
The U-Boats tended to dive as it made them harder to find (until the advent of hunter groups and hedgehog later in the war).
The corvette would have then dropped some dept charges before resuming station – the paucity of escorts up to 43 meant they were needed back with the convoy. So give a hour of finding and dropping (not long if you read up!), and then back. Of course if its the onlt u-boat seen, then longer to keep it down and prevent the radio message re the convoy.

U-boats were aware one slight hole and they were doomed. Unable to dive ad so an easy prey. So diving was preferred except against aircraft after 43 as these were often destroyed first.

Fair comment on the game but why the cease fire on surrender – sorry but the firing continued until (and after) the Germans abandoned ship. Getting information by boarding anempty vessel was part of the game and so anything to stop scuttling was accepted.

I have read a couple of times that once the U-Boats were after the escorts, the Allies knew they were winning.

A bit harsh from me – I support any attempts to fathom this campaign.

There were sorties by the Brits against German surface vessels e.g destroyers.

Its the concept of 'roll back' tht seems to be missing.

If you can destroy the escort, then you can hunt the freighters with less risk. Granted the torpedo is a valuable asset, but which makes more sense; 'wasting' two torpedoes to destroy the escort or losing the submarine with most of the torpedoes still on board?

Good point.

Actually, the scenario is not very historical, but was fun to play nonetheless.

Any decent u-boat commander would:

1. dive at the first sight of the escort vessel, and then either attempt to escape and evade, or set up an attack on the corvette to sink her, from periscope depth; or

2. turn around and try to out-run the corvette, using her superior speed and maneuverability, in order to duck into a patch of fog. Of course, this tactic is rather dicey, given only a 2 knot speed advantage over the escort, and since she might have radar. No radar emissions were detected, buy maybe the Naxos detector isn't working properly.

I presumed that Weber didn't want to undergo another depth charge beating, and believed his and his crew's superior tactics and fighting skills would carry the day. Obviously, he was mistaken in the overall result, but his single torpedo was on target, as anticipated. The luck of the god's failed him at the critical moment…..

A few months later, the u-boats did become a bit more aggressive with the escorts, since they had the new homing torpedoes which could seek out the noise of their engines.

These made attacks on the small, maneuverable escort vessels much more viable, and a number of them were sunk, or had their propellers shot off.

Usually, these were launched by submerged subs at the enemy escorts.

Found a historical account that is very similar to this, where there was a fight on the surface.

USS Roper (an old 4-piper destroyer from WWI) vs. U-85, a Type VIIB U-boat, which fought a night action in April of 1942, off the coast of North Carolina.

The sub was on the continental shelf, prowling for prey, when the DD found it using radar. They doubted it was a real sub contact at first, and were surprised when it turned out to be, and fired at least one torpedo across its bow, presumably from its stern tube.

The sub stayed on the surface to fight it out, since the water depth on the shelf was only about 100 feet deep, so not really much chance of escaping a depth charge attack in such shallow waters.

Apparently, the U-Boat commander was hoping to get to the deeper water further out, but was unsuccessful in the attempt.

This is the first sinking of a U-Boat during WWII, in American waters.

The destroyer's crew and captain appear to have been unprepared for the battle as well – four of the five 3" guns which attempted to do so, were fired before being loaded with shells. The crews then assumed the shells had misfired, so raised their barrels to wait 10 minutes for safety, all in the heat of a night battle at close range with an enemy U-Boat!

One guy on a .50 cal MG managed to keep the Germans away from their 88mm deck gun, until the #5 3" gun could be loaded and fired. It hit the conning tower, holing it a number of times. The sub then sank beneath the waves, abandoning some of the crew on the water's surface.

The gun battle raged at very close quarters, e.g. 200 – 300 yds. distance.

The sub was turning tightly, and was able to outturn the DD considerably, during the action.

Supposedly, the first torpedo was fired from the stern tube, while the sub was being pursued by the DD, the latter moving at 20 knots so as to be able to acquire and maintain a good sonar contact. It was only slowly gaining on the sub, which apparently must have been moving at fairly hight speed, until it started its wild, evasive turning maneuvers.

It's unclear whether other torpedoes were fired from the sub, but from the battle account, it appears that it pulled a full 360 degree turn during the battle, so it may have done so, and missed with them too.

Based upon the account below, it appears there are at least some torpedoes loaded in the forward tubes, ready for firing.

Here's a bit more info on the sub battle:

PDF link

And here's a map of the location where the sub was sunk:

link

Here's info on the salvage dive right after the sinking, which states there was apparently no damage to the conning tower from gunfire:

link

Based upon the diver's account, its unclear to me if the damage to the sub was hidden, due to it lying on its side, or if the captain just attempted to submerge the vessel during combat, or to scuttle the vessel.

Firstly I'm glad everyone had a good time. Enjoying our naval wargames is what it is all about.

Without wanting to be a squelch, there are some things I would like to draw to your attention for future reference when you play games like this. These observations are offered constructively and I hope will help with planning future games.

Weber's crew hoists the white flag, and Lt. Harvey orders his gun crews aboard the corvette to cease firing.

Highly unlikely. Putting up a white flag under fire would be near impossible as the light guns of the corvette would be sweeping the conning tower. The corvette would certainly not cease fire even if they did manage to run up an oily white rag. Admiralty instructions were clear. Keep firing, force the enemy to abandon the boat, then try to board and capture the codes. If he ceased fire the German crew could easily set the scuttling charges in the lull. Better to keep them confused and suffering under fire.

Even though in the game the U Boat is sinking and the Germans know it, the Corvette certainly does not. The role of the Corvette crew would be very clear. Get a party on board that U Boat. Every ship trained for it in the hope it would happen.

Methinks Lt. Harvey would have been hauled before a court of inquiry pretty quick smart on arriving back at base.

no radar signal was detected by the Naxos receiver atop the conning tower.

It would have to be not working at all to fail to pick up Moosejaw in 1943. Canadian radar was so bad with its emissions that when serving on the other side of the Atlantic they were either given a British set, or instructed not to use their own at all. If it was working the Naxos would have been screeeeeeeeching.
During the later part of 1943 Canadian escorts started to switch over to British radar sets, or improved models and the original ones removed. Prior to that it had been noticed and reported, that U Boats they had detected were turning away and diving well before they were in visibility or even close enough range to engage with star shell. From prisoners taken and these observations it was clear that the radar itself was giving away the presence of the escort. Not only that but its emissions were so coarse that it was enabling the U Boats to gain quite reasonable bearings and estimated range.
BTW…for future game reference. The Canadian set was "variable in performance". One captain reported that his set had firm contact on several small ships around him, but at the same moment totally failed to detect the very large merchant ship that just missed him as it sailed down on side of his corvette.

The 88mm and 37mm gun crews on the u-boat

In 1943 a North Atlantic boat operating off Canada would not have a 88mm deck gun, especially if fitted with a 37mm. Even U Boats had to worry about top weight. The armament of the boat would be expected to be twin machineguns on the bridge, twin 20mm mounted either side of the conning tower and a single 37mm aft on the wintergarten. Flak boats normally operated near the Bay of Biscay as flak traps for allied aircraft. Only standard boats went further afield. So a standard armament is likely.

Only in the Norway area did boats retain their deck gun until nearly the end of the war, or in some cases, until the final surrender. This was so they could sink Russian fishing vessels and lone straggler merchant ships in an area where the air threat was far less than in the Atlantic.

TURNING CIRCLES.
The Flower class corvettes had an incredibly small turning circle. They could turn inside most surfaced submarines and certainly far tighter than almost any other escort vessels. This feature was to enable them to turn and re-attack a contact without the long run out associated with most other escorts. The could perform a 360 degree turn while most destroyers were still struggling to reach 90 degrees. The worst being the old US flush deck class which had a turning circle more like that of a battleship. Destroyers were designed for fleet work, corvettes for hunting subs.

Lastly….the instances of U Boats fighting it out on the surface and inflicting as much damage as in your game are non existent. They were even livelier gun platforms than the corvettes….and corvette sailors complained they could roll on wet grass! An Italian submarine did sink a British fleet destroyer with gunfire. Another British P class destroyer sank in an engagement with a Japanese submarine….but in that case as her 4"guns could not penetrate the hull, she rammed the sub, slicing her own hull open on its dive planes. But in general, submarines could expect to lose any surface action, hence the skippers tried to avoid them.

In your game doctrine of the period would indeed allow the German skipper to run in on the surface just as you did. However the same doctrine required him to turn away at full speed if he detected an escort using its radar close by, or if chased by a faster escort, to crash dive. In the case of a flower class corvette any self respecting high seas U Boat could have outrun it even in smooth seas, and most definitely so in heavy seas.

I hope these points are helpful to you in future games.

but which makes more sense; 'wasting' two torpedoes to destroy the escort or losing the submarine with most of the torpedoes still on board?

To hell with the torpedoes! Methinks the U Boat crew would not be happy about being lost either!!!!!

From what I've read surface actions for the subs against any kind of warship were really only an option when the sub had already been damaged by depth charges and it became a case of surface or sink.

That said the escorts weren't all that well equipped for surface actions, they didn't carry that much in the way of gun armament and fire control wasn't much more than point and shoot. Ramming was never a recommended option but was sometimes the quickest way to put a sub down. Although I've read one account of a destroyer that rammed a sub but went pretty much completely over and damaged its over prop shafts. It was torpedoed by another sub while it was lying immobile.

Ramming is certainly effective, but pretty much ensures the rammer will be crippled and out of the fight too, if not actually sunk itself.

Definitely a desperation tactic, but better that than let the sub get away to have a chance of torpedoing an escort, or merchants while hidden.

I wouldn't say that, it guaranteed the rammer would have a caved in bow but as long as they didn't go right over the sub and cabbage the prop shafts they shouldn't be crippled.

If you try to read the monstrous palimpsest that is "North Atlantic Convoy Instructions" from the original documents, you will see that policy changed during the course of the war. Ramming was recommended until the loss of the "Harvester", the SOE's ship in HX-229 (Is suspect the case D for Dubious is referring to -- and Harvester was magnificently avenged very shortly afterwards by the Fighting French "Aconit", probably the most appropriately-named of the Flower class (aconite being another name for wolfsbane, so ideally suited to fighting wolfpacks). However, futher amendments to the instructions show that ramming became policy again very soon afterwards.

Ramming would pretty much guaranty losing a fixed sonar dome; retractable domes were to be retracted before ramming. Given the relative strengths of an escort's scantlings and a U-boat's pressure hull, rolling right over the boat was the way to be certain to kill it. Memorably, Walker's "Extra Special" attack consisted of hedgehogging the U-boat as the esort ran in, ramming her and rolling her over, and then letting her have a shallow-set pattern as she came up astern of the escort. I do not believe anyone ever survived an "extra-special".

All the best,

John.

If anyone did survive an extra special they must have changed names, changed jobs and be still in hiding today! You'd certainly be in no doubt someone wanted to kill you!!!!