"WAB Light Infantry reforming - how far do they move?" Topic

Hi, I am after a wee bit of help with the WAB rules please, particularly (but it may also apply to other units I guess?) with Light Infantry that are in Skirmish formation and that wish to reform into Close Order. My question is; what is the point around which the unit must reform? I ask because it occurs to me that if the unit is, say, eighteen figures strong and they are strung out in a single line it does not seem 'right' that they can reform around a point based on one end of that line as some figures will end up moving a considerable distance above their possible move distance. I realise that a common sense ruling would be that no figure can move above their normal move distance but this seems to be at odds with the 'reform' rule. Any help, guidance or suggestions would be appreciated – particularly with regard to how it is ruled on in competitions (and no, I am not a competition player). Thank you in advance!

I think most gamers use the 'most central' figure, with gentlemanly common sense taking care of the rough edges.

Yep – reform on the most central point, with no figure allowed to move more than twice its normal move to get back in position (p.16, p.148 of the rulebook).

A rules lawyer would argue that any point would be permissible, so long as no figure moves more than twice the normal move--this is the plain sense of the text.

rules lawyers, I would go with what the rules say.

p56
Skirmishing troops who can do so can readopt a conventional formation as long as their unit includes a drummer, horn player or othr musician model. The Musician sounds the call to reform, and the unit regroups into a conventional formation CENTERED UPON THE POSITION OF ITS LEADER.

P148 – ERRATA (Online if you are using the version without these) reforming troops may do so so long as none of the figures move more than twice their movement rate' (my paraphrase).

Pat

But who would pay for a light infantry leader?

PVO

Thanks for the answers and advice guys – very useful indeed.

My light infantry always have a leader and a musician, and occasionally a Standard too. Obviously, without a leader or musician they CANNOT REFORM so that's a pretty useful thing for troops that can whip round a flank in skirmish order, reform and flank-charge an enemy unit.

Standards are usful if, like my Roman Auxiliaries, I expect them to occasionally go toe-to-toe with an enemy formed unit frontally.

Pat

Concur with Justin and Sane Max – I buy leaders and musicians (SBs sometimes) for Light Infantry, but not for troops who can only skirmish.

for light Inf I always have a musician and leader and sometimes a standard, most of my babylonian army is light inf, scarethe s on the other side when all there is is one solid unit and a tonne of skirmishers who are armed with a bow and a dble hand axe for hand to hand, and high leadership to boot

will they justin? Given that a unit cannot profit from a musician or standard if they are in skirmish, this old ploy is no longer useful.

Or am I mis-remembering that.
Pat

Justin, you are kidding me? Reading the errata 'Units do not gain the combat bonuses for unit standards and may not use any musicians in a roll-off' as 'If both units have a musician, the skirmishers lose by one, but if they have one and the enemy don't they WIN by one' is the worst sort of rules-lawyering.

Tell me you don't read it that way. It's just WAB-quality rule-writing. They mean 'Skirmishers don't get to use Musicians for combat results calculations'

Pat

Are you saying Justin, that you don't count a musician in a skirmish unit in the actual roll off (due to the errata), but do count it for a skirmish unit if the other side doesn't have one?

Brinton

I have to say that I read it the way Pat does – the rules on p.40 pertaining to unit standard bearers and musicians hold for all troops, except those for which specific exceptions exist – eg elephants (don't form units) and skirmishers (p.154).

WAB rulebook, page 154

"Skirmishing Units
Units do not gain the combat bonuses for unit standards and may not use any Musicians in a roll-off."

yes we know that Astro – Justin interprets that to read 'skirmishers automatically win a combat by 1 if they have a musician and the other unit does not, as there is NO ROLL-OFF – It's automatic.

Pat

"yes we know that Astro"

Knowing it and understanding it are, it seems, two different things. :-)

Skirmishes DO benefit from a musician bonus on drawn combat.

Perhaps that's obvious at this point.

Kudos to Justin for finding a loophole.
Now we can all play it correctly as worded, but I don't believe that is what was intended by the clarification.
Nice to see the crap hit the crapper.
JeffJ

"From my point of view I have just made you aware of the correct way to play the rule – however its your game, play it any way you like."

-------> You are correct. When folks edited the errata we were working on, it came out differently from the original intent that was decided upon. I've read that errata a dozen times and never found the nuance- because my brain expected something else.

So I tip my cap to you for finding it and setting me straight. I'm just angry that the intent of errata is to make things clearer- and the intent of that rule was to get rid of influence of standards and musicians from skirmishers- but somehow things changed. That is what I meant by crap hitting the c-tank.

It is NOT clearer that musicians would work differently than normal when with skirmishers- as you rightly point out this nuance creates a new different iteration of the rules.

Clearer wording would have related that skirmishers benefit from musicians, except they do not roll off ties… instead we have to graft that onto the standards wording, and it is incomplete since standrads have nothing to do with re-rolls.
And your suggested wording is what I expected.
Now we have a separate sub-set ruling on musicians just for skirmishers- hallelujah, that much makes more sense eh?

I guess one could argue that this musician interpretation aids light infantry in general and specifically aids skirmishers against elephants. So maybe there was another intent added later at the 11th hour. Still I cannot fathom why WAB wants two different modes for musicians…..one for formed and one for unformed.

Generally all these skirmisher issues in WAB need more than just a bandaid, especially since there are so many of them, so many superfluous combinations, with armor, with characters, with hatred, and with other nasty effects that come up in WAB that are imbalancing. So it's all WAB 2.0 for that, in the meantime in tournaments, I guess I will have to give skirmishers tooters now.
thanks
JeffJ

I did not "design the errata".. I was involved in influencing it, apparently not enough to comprehend it :)
JeffJ

"Now does that seem like a good result or would a drawn combat have been better?"

-------> Tough call. I have number of issues with characters 'auto-breaking' if they lose in hth. Against formed units I'm not usually all that miffed- nobody wants a stubborn general holding up that final decisive charge on turn 6!

In single combats which units are not engaged (and maybe challenges), then I'd prefer that characters duke it out for a number of telescoped rounds-- basically rolling the combat until one character is killed, or runs… rather than this fiddly get lucky and hit once and watch Alexander run away! I think that would be more WABlike and offer an exciting moment when characters do meet in personal combat-- currently it is often a let down as Hector flees because he whiffed when attacking Darius, and Darius got a lucky wound. I think telescpoed rounds of comabt woudl be more dramatic.

Of course if the general is hit in "flank", there is some small grey area about whether single models can have a flank. But since there is no distinction in the rules, then single models have flanks and rears like any other unit. I concur with that, as it makes getting rid of elephants easier with skirmishers. That +2 can really herd off an elephant charge through a drilled unit quickly. With this new revelation (to me) that the skirmishers can add their musician, then side and rear attacks on elephants can be really devastating.
Of course, I will continue to lobby that Greek and Macedonian skirmishers not be allowed to use oracles for CR
additions.. (mostly because it makes them the best elephant killers in WAB, whcih is kind of silly) … but I seem to be a lone voice in the wilderness on that one…. but maybe I should give up since a muscian might force the Greeks to burn oracles on his skirmishers- which really is a poor choice in most games.
JeffJ