"Order of Battles for MGBs, MTBs, and PTs?" Topic

I have a number of sources, but I'm trying to find something that cross references pennant numbers with flotillas, theaters, and dates of service. For instance MGB 529, Mediterranean, 1942-1945. Does such a reference exist for British, U.S., Germans, and Italians?

Second questions: Did the Japanese have something like a PT boat or MGB for convoy defense?

Buck Surdu

There was a couple of books put out by John Lambert that covers that sort of stuff. I have the book dealing with the US boats, and it does have the number and squadrons listed in the back.

Here's a link to get started, on Amazon for one of the books;

link

The Japanese did have armed, and armoured, barges used to protect their coastal transport barges, but my books are still mostly packed from a move, so I don't have better info at hand.

Cheers

The Narrowseas Yahoo group has a file that lists an order of battle for Allied and German small boats in the Med, it may be of help. Yes the Japanese had a wide variety of barges and gunboats that they used in the Pacific.

Tom

Hi Buck;

there is a source for German;
I have the book S-Boote German E boats in action by Jean-Phillippe Dallies-Labourdette.
Publihsed by Histoire & Collections

I got it from Amazon.com

Looking through it right now, I see passages like "German battle order on the Western Front (1942)"
2nd S-Boote Flotilla
S29
S39
S53
etc.

Is this what you are looking for?
Joe Parvana

Hi Buck,

I've run across a few links, here and there, but can't recall where.

There are quite a few links I ran across, in a quick search, so today is your lucky day. One of the PT sites even has info and pics of Japanese PT's, which I hadn't seen before, so it is my lucky day as well.

There is one for the British MTB's, so doing a search on MTB's/MGB's might bring it up. Not sure that it broke them down into service areas, but at least you can tell which number belongs to which vessels.

This should get you started:

link

link

ptboatworld.com/info.htm

link

link

ptdockyard.tripod.com/id5.html

The German site has a lot of good detailed info on the S-Boats, and the listings above have excellent info for PT's too.

The Japanese did produce a few PT's, but apparently they were pretty rare. They tended to use barges/small landing craft for coastal ops, backed up by destroyers, and other larger than PT-type patrol vessels, e.g. roughly the size of a sub chaser.

Great minds must think alike.

I just received a shipment of 1/1250th scale Figurehead PT's, MTB's, and S-Boats, along with minesweepers, lighters, u-boats, and cargo ships, which we will be adding to our product catalog shortly. These are beautiful little castings, and excellent for running games in a small area, or for playing larger games with lots of minis on the tabletop.

We also have copies of Action Stations for sale too.

For $30.00, or so, you can get a nice little force to start gaming coastal forces actions.

I hope that helps.

Let us know if you run across any good info too.

Best regards,

Rob
Topgun Marketing LLC
topgunace111 AT yahoo DOT com

Buck,

I'd have to dig through my books at home for a full answer, but here are some suggestions to get you started.

For U.S. PT boats you can try 'At Close Quarters, by Robert Bulkley' which lists which boats were assigned to a squadron and the general area the squadron was active in. I think that 'PT Boats at War, by Norman Polmar' has similar (or the same) information.

For British, I don't think there is one source but I think the following books have information on boat assignments for Fairmile D and MTBs:
-Dog Boats at War, by L C Reynolds
-MTBs at War; Home Waters, by L C Reynolds
-MTBs at War; The Mediterranean, by L C Reynolds

I think the 'Allied Coastal Forces of WWII, Volumes 1 & 2, by John Lambert has some more information for British and U.S. MTB/MGBs too.

For the Germans, 'German Coastal Forces of WWII, by M L Whitley' has some information, but I seem to recall that it is in the text of the book, rather than being in a table or appendix.

I don't know of any books for the Italians.

RE; your second question:
The Japanese did have some small craft used to escort barge traffic around the South Pacific, but they didn't seem to have any program similar to the Allies. Most of the small craft were modified landing craft/barges.

Dave

Thanks, everybody. I found this link that you might find interesting: link This lists which numbers were assigned to which squadron and mostly tells where the squadron operated. I haven't had as much luck with the other nations, but I'm starting to go through the links all of you provided.

Buck

In Time Portal Passages which can be found on Magweb, a list of battles of PT boats can be found in one of the issues. The most common Japanese foe was the barge armed with MGs and sometimes a 20mm. The second most common target was coastal gun positions.

The small boat service was regarded as the best arm of the Italian military by some writers.

Buck,

This one has all of the details for the Brits:

link

For the Italians, that, and their combat swimmers and mini-sub drivers were superb.

I think I have what I need for U.S. I am still light on the other belligerants. I have read one of Reynolds' books and have another at home, so I'll check it out and see if it will square me away on the UK. Ron sent a good link for Germany, but my German is pretty poor, and that is going to take time to hunt through.

Any ideas on Italy, Free France, and/or Japan?

Buck

A list of all small boat types are in Coastal Command. Based on janes and other sources.

Ijustchecked the TPP article again. It is mainly a list of significant actions of US PT boats. Over 78 actionsare listed. Some OBnotes. here is an excert:

Notes:

A. PT 8 was the only all aluminum hull boat.

B. Experimental rocket launchers were installed on the bow of PTs 211, 203 and 202. They were noted as only being used twice vs other boats since the ignition flame pinpointed their location.

C. The Elco Thunderbolt system was a Quad 20mm deployed with Sqdn 29 on at least 4 boats.

D. For long missions PT boats carried extra fuel on deck in drums or rubber tanks which were often dumped if early contact was made with the enemy.

E. For deception Operations boats were often outfitted with loudspeakers.

F. On of the most effective additional pieces of equipment was the floatable smoke pots which the boats could drop over the side when needed.

This article is a continuation of the scenario presentation process along with additional notes on small craft operations during the war. Invaluable material and an outstanding book on US operations can be found in Cpt Buckley's book, At Close Quarters, 1962, which is based on official reports from both Allied and Axis sources. Other good books include William Breuer's Devil Boats: PT War Against Japan and Frank Johnson's US PT Boats of World War II.

Vosper, I had to laugh…..my library is still packed away after my separation and divorce a number of years ago…..no space!

Free French boats were mostly British Vospers. A new book came out this spring on French MTBs, detailing the three French built boats (VTB-8, 11 and 12) that served with the FFL briefly in 1940-41 dropping agents on the French coast. There were about five BPB MTBs that the French briefly used were taken back over by the British. As far as I know the French built craft never launched a torpedo at an enemy but there were cool little boats.

The Japanese boats were rare, underpowered and undergunned. Lots of simple drawings are around of the boats but very, very few of operational boats in combat condition. Most of the boats appear to have been built very late in the war and kept in the Phillipines and home islands. The ones around in 1943 or so were in the island chains doing anti-sub work. The MGBs were caller "Hayabusa" boats – don't know why.

There was a type of gunboat called the Type C that was armored and had a few MGs and sometines a short 57mm. These were in the New Guinea theater and occasionally dusted up with PTs.

Regarding the Italians, Here is a short photo history of the MAS boats:
link

They also had their version of the German S-boat, the Motosiluranti ( MS) craft. Not much out yet on those but I hear of some books in the works.

Dave G
The PT Dockyard
ptdockyard.tripod.com

Free French boats were mostly British Vospers. A new book came out this spring on French MTBs, detailing the three French built boats (VTB-8, 11 and 12) that served with the FFL briefly in 1940-41 dropping agents on the French coast. There were about five BPB MTBs that the French briefly used were taken back over by the British. As far as I know the French built craft never launched a torpedo at an enemy but there were cool little boats.

The Japanese boats were rare, underpowered and undergunned. Lots of simple drawings are around of the boats but very, very few of operational boats in combat condition. Most of the boats appear to have been built very late in the war and kept in the Phillipines and home islands. The ones around in 1943 or so were in the island chains doing anti-sub work. The MGBs were called "Hayabusa" boats – don't know why.

There was a type of gunboat called the Type C that was armored and had a few MGs and sometines a short 57mm. These were in the New Guinea theater and occasionally dusted up with PTs.

Regarding the Italians, Here is a short photo history of the MAS boats:
link

They also had their version of the German S-boat, the Motosiluranti ( MS) craft. Not much out yet on those but I hear of some books in the works.

Dave G
The PT Dockyard
ptdockyard.tripod.com

One book that often gets overlooked is Brian Cooper's book 'The Battle of the Torpedo Boats' , 1970. A very good and easy to read account of the war in almost all areas of action.

One that has been mentioned in regards to action vs Japan is ' Devil Boats' by William Breuer.

Rudy,
That is a great one. Nice concise collection of unit histories.

Here is a link on the MAS on the Black Sea
link

Dave G
The PT Dockyard

It's been well over a year since this thread was last used but I thought I might point you to the book by Sir Peter Scott, the son of Robert Falcon Scott. (Of the Antarctic) Post-war, he became a conservationist & naturalist Artist, as well as producing many wildlife documentaries for the BBC & ITV TV channels in the UK.
The book he wrote was called The Battle of the Narrow Sea. It is all about his wartime exploits in the Royal Navy patrolling the English Channel. He also illustrated it with paintings of the actions he was involved in, pencil sketch portraits of crew members, maps and lots of photographs of MTB ML MGBS etc. It may be rather tricky to get hold of today & I don't know if later reprints are as lavish as the one I once had, (it was a first edition hard back) but if you can get a good copy, you won't be disappointed.

Paul