"Multi-part Historical Plastic 28mm" Topic

What would you like to see?

My main concept is 28mm, 20 multi-part minis per box -- about $30 USD retail. Maybe a few metal pieces thrown in as "extras"

What genres would you like to see?

I'm thinking Caesarian Romans to start -- Celts/Germanics/ -- British Colonials/ ACW/ WW2 1945 Germans/Americans -- Vikings/Normans/Saxons -- what sets make sense for you?

What sets/what poses/etc. do you want to see?

Napoleonics Ceasarian romans punic wars peloponissian wars

almost anything done would be welcomed

Hi 54, I've read many of your posts on everything from mold making and sculpting to pre-painting. I thought you were planning something along the lines of EM4's 28mm ACW figure sets (which I haven't seen yet). Are you now thinking of going unpainted to capture some of the model making market?

I have spoken to a number of manufacturers about which are the most popular periods and they told me that these things vary greatly over time. For a period something is 'hot' and then interest drops off. I can only suggest following the crowd in 1/72nd plastics. Head over to

plasticsoldierreview.com

Record the genre of each set produced and the date (in case something was hot in the past but dead now). An analysis might be helpful to you. But of course it might be a bit different (or even very different) for 28mm.

If you make an analysis let me know!

Cheers

Neil
reinforcementsbypost.com

Some thoughts:

1) Multi-part is ideal for armies where there was diversity of clothing, but certain items would be common and you might want a generic pose with multiple slight (yet obvious) variations – eg ECW, AWI, ACW.

2) Ditto for skirmish forces where uniforms were common, but individuality of pose/weapons might be needed – eg WW2.

3) Think about whether you want to appeal to wargamers, toy soldier/figurine collectors or modelling enthusiasts (or any combination of them). The needs of these groups will be specific, although there will be some overlap obviously.

4) Perhaps look at armies/periods that are popular, but not overly represented in the plastics field – producing yet another set of Roman legionaries, British infantry in Belgic shako, or WW2 German infantry won't make you a millionaire.

5) Make sure your stuff is historically accurate – most plastics beat most metals in terms of general sculpting and accurate anatomy, but fall down on the details and this limits their appeal.

Fifty4: "My main concept is 28mm, 20 multi-part minis per box -- about $30.00 USD USD retail."

Thinking better of it, this puts you on a price level beyond the cheapest metal manufacturers (eg. Old Glory).

Meaning that there needs to be enough quality and posability in the kit to bring plenty of added value to the customer.

Griefbringer

Yes $30 USD would be a bit too high for plastics, for me. I mostly buy FOundry on eBay or on sale for lower prices; often as low as $1 USD per mini.

Simon

$30 USD far too high! You are thinking GW prices here and we all know what the consensus seems to be about that!
If I am going to use plastics then it is for one reason price. Pricing them at the same as metals is pointless. Half that price and we are talking!

It is a valid point that fads come and go so manufacturers are right to be hesitant to take the plunge into tooling costs etc.
The other side of this coin is that if sets off affordable plastics come onto the market then they could create interest in that period. For instance Napoleonics seem to be a staple period for a lot of gamers and given the megalomaniac type they (we!) are they will probably snap them up, and people who are thinking of the period and were put off by the initial cost will now be presented with cheap figures to try out the period.

I guess we can see why no one makes these, historical gamers are too cheap.

And bigredbat, why wouldn't you be able to buy these on ebay for less than the retail price, too?

Why not have a pole on it?

But I would happly pay that price for plactic figs, £15.00 GBP doesnt seem to much for me.111111

I would be interested in Colonials other than British, pretty much anything used in the Boxer Rebellion or Span-Am War. I would also be likely to buy modern troops as well, but don't imagine the the market would justify the start-up costs.

Yeoman – you should shift over to gaming with plastic toys. You can buy 50-100 plastic toys (soldiers, tanks, planes) in a bag for a few dollars. Or you could just do as suggested above and buy this sort of product cheaply on ebay. I don't think any manufacturer is likely to satisfy your price constraints (without going bust).

£15.00 GBP for 20 plastic, multi-part 28mm models? That sounds like a good deal to me.

I generally prefer a metal figure to a plastic one, because I like the heft and because they never deteriorate (in my experience, old plastic minis of my youth have all crumbled).

My point was that for me to purchase them, the plastic price would have to at very least match the ebay price of nicer metal figures. The sculpt quality would also have to be similar. The only minis I've seen do this in 28mm have been a few of the GW ones.

Simon

Nice concept but another scale (I am sticking to 6mm with some 15mm – all 25mm stuff are legacy armies I am only buying occassional figures for) means I wouldn't be tempted.

aurouch – cheap? or fiscally responsible?

Gracias,

Glenn

Ah, posted to early.

I meant to add that yours is a good price compared to places like Foundry where you are getting 8 models for £10, especially with the benefits of making them multi-part and posing them the way you like with the equipment you like. One thing that sort of sucks about Foundry's ACW range is that a lot of sculpts have full campaign packs and knapsacks on their backs which you can't remove, despite the fact troops didn't usually wear these on the battlefield to my knowledge.

Detail of the models is important though, I'd rather pay a bit extra and have good looking models, than buy cheaper ones with less detail.

BTW Chortle, the ACW figures you finished for me a few days ago were Foundry, not Redoubt. Reboubt was the company causing me ridiculous Irish Brigade banner related problems! Ended up having to get them from GMB.

I like the idea of colonials, but would suggest that the placstics be for the forces that need the most figures. Zulus, Sudanese, Chinese Boxers, etc. Leave the metals for the smaller number of Europeans.

Same rule should apply for other periods, Barbarian Hordes, horse archers, Persian infantry for ancients.

Line infantry for Napoleonics, Western troops for ACW (similar clothing styles), etc.

So Chortle you think 20 figures for around £8.00 GBP is too cheap?
I believe that is the sort of price that is going to be needed to make a project work. Any more and you might as well buy metal.
As for manufacturers going bust, I don't think so, how many plastic 20mm producers are there? link

Our figures are after all just toy soldiers same as "50-100 plastic toys (soldiers, tanks, planes) in a bag for a few dollars". No sense in thinking that they are anything more than that and they can be priced similarly.

As it stands 28mm are already out of my budget. so I dont buy them!

I'd say Roman, Ancient Greek, or Medieval. It would make sense since the market would be expanded to Fantasy and Sci-fi gamers using your sets for conversions or for Fantasy quivalents.

Less than £1.00 GBP per fig? Yeah I'd buy them as long as they were good enough, and it was a period I was interested in.

I'd probably be interested in Colonials and Vikings.

GW prices are for "The GW Hobby".
We historical tightwads demand cheap figures. As a cretified and registered Tightwad™ I belong to the Old Glory Army, where I pay $17 USD foor a bag of 30 METAL figures. I just went in with a friend on some RAFM old school ancints at 6 for $4.00.

So, for a 25/28mm plastic figure to have any attraction, it would have to be half those prices.
Lik I said, I am a tghtwad.

I can see an AWI pack, with tons of interchangeable heads and bodies. I can also see a small box of heads for specialized units. Let's say that there is a pack of "British Light infantry in slouch hats and roundabouts". Combine a pack of Tarleton hats, and I have Lee's Legion.
Put pimp hats on cut-down British regular uniforms and you get DeLancey's Brigade.
And so on.

"…certified…"

I think so of you need to look at what it cost to produce in plastic. The initial costs of setting up the molds is what keeps most companies from doing any type of plastic miniatures. Once you get past the very high start up costs, things are a little cheaper and you could expect at some point to be able to offer minis at a cheaper price. The problem is that you need a lot of money upfront just to get started, then you need even more money to make new molds to expand the lines . In order to keep in business and have enough in reserve to make new molds and expand the line, would require the prices to stay rather constant over time and wipe out some of the possible savings or price reductions. Overall, most companies don't do plastic because it is just not cost effective for small producers. If it was so easy to get into and cheap to produce, there would be tons of companies out there with GW quality minis. Take a look around and you will notice VERY few plastics that get even close to GW in quality, especially for the price. Just my two cents.

Jeff

Not only that but the miniature company has to buy a container load generally from the factory. So high up front costs and high inventory levels means a lot of capital tied up. You pick the wrong period as a small manufacturer and you're bust I'd say.

David
kingsfordminiatures.org

Fiscally responsible?

It's a hobby. How does fiscal responsibility come into play when talking about buying toy soldiers.

No I think cheap is the right word. It looks like John the OFM summed it up.

Even though I don't game in 25mm, I would jump at a box of multi-pose Vikings to play large raids and warband actions.

If you want to cross over and be attractive to Fantasy gamers, going Vikings and Medieval would be a natural route.

It's interesting that at least some people regard plastics as being, innately, worth about half the price of a metal figure.

I don't agree with this myself, but it may be worth considering as one of those "we can't say why it's true but it is" matters.

I'm not sure that anyone should consider the opinions of those who simply won't do 28mm figures anyway. Those who will do 28mms but are concerned about price are a different matter.

John the OFM is right, as is often the case.
Historical wargamers generally are cheap bastards who would paint facings on an acorn if it saved them a nickel apiece. I'm not saying this is necessarily right or wrong. I'm just saying it is true.

Personally, I think some of the ranges that interest you could be enhanced in 28mm. However I think that focusing on holes in other companies ranges may be a good idea.

There are so many companies with sound reputations that make fighting forces in all these eras that even with high quality sculpts and a good business model, you are still setting yourself up for failure. I think infantry axemen, swordsmen, spearmen, archers, and the other common historical types will just be lost on most gamers.

Here are the type of figures historical gamers will notice…

Celtic Chariot Driver ($3)
Saxon Woman Weaving in chair ($5)
Unarmored Norman Siege Engineer ($3)
Captured Roman Soldier with Hands Bound ($3)
Viking Lad Slinger ($2.50)
Dark Ages battering Ram Crew (?)
Roman Briton Slinger ($3)
Fleeing Celtic Civilian ($3)
Young Man Holding Horse ($3)
Dark Ages Man Pulling Rope ($3) use with siege engine
Norman Head Sprue (5 for $3) shaved hair crown
Greek Runner with Exhausted Look ($3)
Persian Galley Oarsman ($3)
Greek Putting on Armor with Slave ($6)
Climbing Roman with Gladius ($3)
Pict Siege Crew (3 for $9)
Persian Battering Ram Crew (?)
Romanized Nubian Merchant ($3)
Medieval Stone Mason/Carpenter Working on Knees ($3)
Roman Soldier Sitting Sharpening Sword ($4)
Crucified Criminal ($4)
Sumerian Farmer ($3)
Roman Bathhouse Figure ($3)
Guardsman with Hand out for Bribe ($3)
Townsman for Carthage ($3)
Berber Shepard with Staff ($3)

As for the business, always think like the customer rather than the sculptor. The sculptor wants to created a piece of art posed with rippling muscles and an oversized weapons. While your customers do buy this figure, they are as likely to buy it from another company. Your challenge is to find the holes in the hobby where you are the only company to supply that figure that the historical gamer can't live without. You can keep your prices up a little if you are suppling highly demanded figures rather than just another soldier amoung many.

I can't advise on plastic vs. metal, but conventional wisdom seems to suggest metal is the only sensible option for a startup company.

Hope it goes well,
Certified Tighwad religon

Can you recoomend a cheap source of acorns? Not a lot of oak trees in the Mojave Desert…

Allen

Raleigh, NC, "The City of Oaks", has a large 5 ft. diameter bronze acorn as the unofficial city symbol. (They lower it from a crane New Years Eve from a crane to ring in the new year.)

I just had a mental image of this acorn in the middle of a gaming table surrounded by smaller acorns in a swarm attack.

Are the acorns metal or plastic?

I'm not paying $.55 USD for a plastic acorn, but maybe for a metal one. If it is 28mm.

Actually I would love to see plastics. I prefer plastics to metal, as I've mentioned many times before when this subject has come up. If I could magically transform all of my foundry macedonian pikement to plastic I'd be so happy. They would store more easily, transport more easily, stay together better and be much lighter to carry around.

Does anyone think rising oil prices might cause problems for plastics manufacturers in the future?

Not really. The price of the oil in the ultimate cost of the plastic has to be so small that even doubling the cost of oil probably wouldn't have much of an effect on the price of the plastic.

Plus in the US at least, the rising price of gasoline doesn't have as much to do with the cost of oil as it does with the lack of refinery space so the price of gas is going up without a concomitant increase in the price of oil.

You're trying to cater for two different markets. One lot just want cheap figures, in which case you should be concentrating on one piece mouldings in a limited number of poses (remember rospacks?). My gut reaction is 40 figs for £10.00 GBP would be right for this product. The other lot dont mind paying more money for the ability to pose the figures. My question to you is why not do posable figures in metal? The initial mould making costs would be far lower than for plastic, and metal would increase the "quality" image. Go for top quality sculpts and aim to charge, say £1.50 GBP per figure.

The advantage of plastics in the multipose world is that they are so easy to assemble. You have a bunch of bits on the sprue that provide you with lots of options. There is no need for pinning, you can put figs in positions that metal models wouldn't easily be assembled in.

The plastics are cheap to produce once the mold is made, they are sturdier than the metal figures. They don't chip. They don't weigh much. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They don't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And they absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.

They are much better than metal like that.

The multipose thing is so that you don't end up with a bunch of identical figs like GW did when they first started releasing plastic. They aren't actually that multipose but they are enough to make the unit look different with different heads and what not.

With metals I buy as close to one piece castings as I can, with plastics the more parts, to a limit, the better.

Perhaps The ideal plastics to start with would be horses.

it may not be a good idea to say " I'm willing to pay $30 USD for 20 figures" You are obviously not a poker player. Let the manufacturer worry on what we will pay. The idea is to say I'll pay "$20 for fifty figures" and let the manufacturer get as close to that as he can.

Chortle mentioned that you can buy 50-100 plastic 'Toys' for a few dollars. Remember they make a profit on those. So what does that tell you?

The plastic used in those toys is different from the plastic used in GW's plastic figs. The GW figs hard plastic, with the detail we are used to, are very difficult to make.

I think if you want to see them you won't get to by playing poker with the manufacturer who looks at it and says, "I have to sell 3.87x10^30 of these things at $20 USD for 50 figs to break even so screw it."

If you say you would be willing to pay $30 USD for 20 figs, which is less than I am paying for most historical 28s now, they might be more likely to seriously consider it.

Hi pictor, sorry to take issue with this, but why cant metal figs be easily posed? The reason that the plastic figue I have seen are easy to assemble is that they simplify the parts leading to flat surfaces that are glued together. There is no reason why a manufacturer could not do this in metal. It would be a lower risk option for someone starting a new business venture than tooling up for plastics. As regards my first suggestion (stack em tall, sell em cheap), I dont think this is a viable option as it doesnt add much value – after all I think rospacks actually went bust.

I thought the colonial tribesmen eg Zulu or Beja would be very suitable for the mutipart approach were lots of possible variety would suit the irregular figures. However if you want to shift lots I'd do something like Napoleonic French line infanty.

Union Jack Jackson, it is because the plastics glue together so much more easily than the metals. If you use a plastic cement with GW plastics you can get the thinest piece of plastic to glue to another piece. It may not be the stablest thing but you can glue those plastic arrows straight onto plastic bodies without drilling a hole first.

If they are protected behind an arm or something they are pretty good there too.

It is easier to drill the whole.

But try that with a metal arrow on a metal figure, try gluing a bayonet back on or a plume. It is possible, but very difficult.

It is probably prohibitively expensive for a start up company. If they offered two sets of plastics, say Beja or Zulu and British to oppose them, then they would be looking at about half a million or so as a start up cost, from what I've heard.

Now if someone like Battlefront were to do it with T-34's and offered a kit where you could make all the variants of the T-34 or Sherman or whatever, with one or two sprues, then it might be worth it.

Hell, even if they were $8 USD each I'd buy the plastic t-34's, it would save me carrying around god-knows-how much weight in metal and having the tracks break off of the resin/metal hybrid ones from time to time.

whole in the third paragraph should be hole, of course.

Thanks Pictor, I take your point, but I think I would rather take a bit more time with epoxy resin or soldier and use the metal figures instead.I suppose it just comes down to personal preference.

well, when anyone actually seriously plans to do 28mm plastics the thing to do is invest in a plane ticket and go here yiwu-china.org
This is the cheapest place in the world to do this sort of thing
Has an amazing amount of curry and muslim restaurants, due to all the middle eastern traders there

A$2.50 approx per fig? No probs. The one thing I miss about GW is the plastics as they are easy to work with and to convert. If 1/72 scale plastics were made of the same material I would buy them over most metal products. TBH I think WW2 is the best place to start. As much as I'd love 28mm plastic ancients I doubt that my favoured armies will be in the first lots done.

There is a novelty in putting together a set of 10 Mordheim Empire Militia. But, it is something I like to do only once in a while.
I would hate to do a whole army that way. The stray unit, yes. Army, no.

The mordheim empire militia set is exceptionally piece-y. If you look at some of their more regular troops, like the new empire halberdiers, that is easier.

So if the celts, or fuzzies or what have you have 5 basic leg/torso poses and then a variety of arms so you can make swordsmen, spearmen, riflemen (not for the celts) etc. and then 6 different heads so that if you want all spearmen just mixing the heads and torsos will give you about 30 possible combinations.

Choosing metal over plastic does seem to be a question of personal choice. I used to be in the metal camp myself until I had more experience with the plastics and started lugging around my 600+ figures for my successor armies.

Then the lightness is appreciated.

I readily agree with malekithau that if the 1/72 plastics were made out of the same plastic as the GW plastics I would have all 1/72nd scale armies.

A multi part ACW box set of 28mm figures would be AMAZING because you don't have that many different uniforms!

Pants are all the same. Most jackets are the same. A few hat types (kepi, civilian style, none.) You could basically do a standard ACW box set that would cover both the Union and the Confederates! That would be frikking AMAZING.

Maybe have an expansion set of just different heads (Hardee hats.)

A second box set could be zouaves. Include a few different head varients (fez, turban, kepi) and there you go.

You could OWN the ACW market if you could do this fairly cheap.

I would hate to do a whole army that way. The stray unit, yes. Army, no.

------> Good Sermon OFM. I'll go back to the choirbox :)
JeffJ

This from the man who chops heads willy-nilly, switches shields, puts together a Persian royal chariots from parts from about fifty different manufacturers…

Allen

I'd love to be able to put Hellenistic Greek helms on armoured Persian Cav and call them (Mr Curtis will ove this) Pontic nobles. The same with a selection of Marian Legio wearing Greek helmes and thureos. So much easier with plastics.

If hard plastic figs in a variety of poses, not necessarily multi pose, were available in 28mm and 15mm (or Xyston "15" mm) or 1/72 I'd be all over them. I'd probably replace all my metal figs. Plastic is easy to convert and easy to repair.

If I had unlimited money this is one of the things I'd be doing. This and getting Firefly back on telly.

My wish list -:
Carthaginian range – worked for HAT and is easily expandable to other armies.
WW2 28mm – multipart with weapons choices etc
Pretty much anything classical Ancient period.
I'd probably play ACW 28mm if these were available – the pre-painted stuff doesn't do it for me.

Bring it on. I'll buy 'em!

I wonder if the possibility has been explored in other scales at all?

Certainly there wouldn't be as much need in 15mm as most figs are one piece castings in that scale and any that aren't I consider too fiddly to deal with anyway.