"70th Anniversary of the Bombing of Guernica " Topic
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Quebecnordiques | 26 Apr 2007 6:00 a.m. PST |
Living as I am in Spain at the moment, I just thought I'd spark a bit of curiousity and even possibly, some interest from fellow TMPers on what happened 70 years ago to this day. The following extract is taken in its entirety from the BBC website. The legacy of Guernica It is 70 years since the bombing of Guernica during Spain's Civil War. The BBC's Danny Wood visits the town to find out what the event means to Spaniards today. Guernica 70 years ago and today
Josefina Odriozola was a 14-year-old girl shopping in the market with her mother when German and Italian planes supporting the Fascist forces of Gen Franco closed in on the town. "I remember it well," she says. "We left everything in the market and went home. We lived just outside the town, but the bombing started and we were there in the main square. Three planes flew in full of bombs and then left empty. Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb, until everything was burning." Josefina is one of about 200 people, many in their 80s, who are still alive to describe what they witnessed on that day. Today, it is not the bombing that makes her most angry, but what followed. "They burnt the city down with their planes and they denied they had done it – they blamed it on the Communists," she says. "My sister was 13 years older than me and they told her that the Reds had destroyed Guernica. But she said: 'No, the Reds don't have planes.' And they said to her: 'You little Red, we're going cut all your hair off.' Why? Because she was telling the truth. We couldn't even say the truth about the attack." Historical truth That same concern with historical truth is on the minds of more and more Spaniards as the country marks the 70th anniversary. Spanish society is becoming more interested in knowing the full story about its recent history, from the Civil War to the death of dictator Gen Franco in 1975. Josefina is angry that the truth about the bombing was covered up Jose Ortunez and his Guernica History Association have spent 30 years reconstructing the truth about what happened here in 1937. The forces of Gen Franco blamed the attack on their enemy in the Civil War: the Communist-backed Republican government. Thanks partly to work by people like Jose, Spaniards know the truth, that the attack from the air was by German and Italian planes supporting General Franco. Gen Franco wanted to terrorise the people in the Basque region, an area of strong resistance to his nationalist forces in the Civil War. For Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, it was an opportunity to get some practice with a new form of warfare: strategic, aerial bombing of civilians. No strictly military objectives were touched. Factories and bridges were left alone – civilians were the only targets. Ironically for a town almost completely destroyed by armed conflict, Guernica, before the Civil War and afterwards, continued to be a major production centre for bombs and automatic pistols. The figures for the number of casualties in the bombing are still disputed, but most historians think between 200 and 250 people were killed and many hundreds wounded. Positive message The attack not only terrorised the people of Guernica. This methodical and well-planned destruction spread fear across Europe on the eve of World War II. Guernica is symbolic of interest in unearthing the truth about the past But today, Guernica is sending out a more positive message. Iratxe Astorkia, director of Guernica's Peace Museum, says the permanent exhibition of the museum aims to make the visitor reflect on three things: the nature of peace, what happened in Guernica 70 years ago and what happens nowadays with peace in the world. The museum and its centre for investigation have converted Guernica into a world centre for peace studies and conflict resolution. And for many Spaniards, Guernica is symbolic of the renewed interest in unearthing the truth about their own recent past. "I think Guernica is a good example of not forgetting and trying to go further," says Ms Astorkia. "More and more young people in Spain want to know about it. They lost their parents, their sisters their brothers and they didn't know much more than that." Ms Astorkia partly blames the education system for ignorance about this period. Barely a few pages are devoted to Spain's Civil War in official school text books. An estimated 30,000 people murdered during the Civil War still lie in mass graves. The government is preparing new legislation that will officially honour victims of the Franco regime for the first time. Keeping the young informed With survivors and witnesses of the bombing in their 80s, the challenge now is to convey the importance of Guernica to a new generation. Luis Iriondo hid inside this bomb shelter for hours One witness who does a very good job of that, is Luis Iriondo. Seventy years ago, as a 14-year-old boy, Luis ran across Guernica's main square and found refuge from the bombs in a shelter. Through a doorway is the wine cellar-like room where Luis found safety with dozens of others. He says it was completely dark and there was no ventilation, so after five minutes he could hardly breath. As the bombs started dropping he says he was terrified and expected to be buried alive. "This bombardment lasted for three, maybe three and a half hours," he says.
"You could hear the bombs and feel the hot currents of air being forced away by the explosions. I tried to pray. "Finally it finished, and I didn't really know what had happened, I knew that it was a bombardment and expected houses to be in ruins. But when I left the shelter I could see that everything was on fire." Incendiary bombs had destroyed three quarters of the town. Luis fled to the hills and remembers looking back and seeing the buildings collapse. He says when he sees images of the twin towers falling down in New York, it reminds him of that day seven decades ago. Iconic painting Today, 84-year-old Luis thinks it's more important than ever to remember Guernica and its message: Picasso's work could not go to Spain while it was a dictatorship "War doesn't solve anything," he says. "It just sows the seeds for more war. World War I led to World War II. The attack on Iraq – look where that's led." Luis is an artist and talks in schools about his experience, encouraging children to paint what happened in Guernica. Back in Madrid, it is the artwork of one of the world's most famous painters that has helped bring Guernica's message to millions of people. At the Reina Sofia Art Gallery, Pablo Picasso's Guernica is always surrounded by visitors, of all ages, both Spanish and foreign. But it was not always in the gallery. Picasso would not allow it to return to Spain while the country was a dictatorship. For that reason, says the head of collections at the Reina Sofia, Javier de Blas, many Spaniards associate the work with their country's desire to be free of Gen Franco. "It was a symbol of this construction of democracy," says Mr De Blas. "The whole world accepted that the country had recovered its political and social liberties in part because Picasso permitted the return of the painting to Spain." For many, it is also a constant reminder of the truth that the Franco regime preferred to cover up. "We're in an moment of reflection concerning everything that happened in our recent past," says Mr de Blas. "This painting continues to do transcendental things in order to bring us towards understanding the truth." After the death of Franco in 1975, there was an agreement between the left and right of politics, not to critically examine the past. But as the country marks 70 years since the bombing of Guernica, things seem to be changing. Many Spaniards feel that their transition to democracy will not be complete until they take a closer look at their recent history. |
mrabbit | 26 Apr 2007 8:02 a.m. PST |
Not a great day but a great painting |
Nick Nascati | 26 Apr 2007 8:15 a.m. PST |
Someone once wrote (who I can't recall), that the Spanish Civil War is the most obscure, important event of the 20th century! |
VillageIdiot | 26 Apr 2007 10:38 a.m. PST |
Its difficult to unravel the many tangled strands of the Spanish Civil War, but well worth the effort, as it is a fascinating period of history. |
RockyRusso | 26 Apr 2007 10:47 a.m. PST |
Hi A minor point, the commies did have aircraft. An oddity of this was that the germans didn't quite have the airforce they had later. In this raid, they used ordinary trasports, the JU52/3m, and merely rolled bombs out the door. Rocky |
Nick Nascati | 26 Apr 2007 11:05 a.m. PST |
Rocky, Absolutely right! In fact, until the Germans started supplying JU-87 and ME-109s, the Republicans had better planes. |
bruntonboy | 26 Apr 2007 12:08 p.m. PST |
The Republic having an airforce is hardly news
although there wasn't many loayalist aircraft on the Basque front. The point is of course is the sheer shock and terror the Germans created with their deliberate destruction of a civilian target during this raid. How they dropped the bombs is hardly important. Salud, Graham |
Jim McDaniel | 26 Apr 2007 3:50 p.m. PST |
Wasn't the attack code-named Operation Shock und Awe? |
Frontovik | 27 Apr 2007 3:37 a.m. PST |
Operation Ruegen actually :o). And it wasn't just Ju52s
. link |
Mobius | 27 Apr 2007 3:50 a.m. PST |
"before the Civil War and afterwards, continued to be a major production centre for bombs and automatic pistols." What? Bomb a major production centre for bombs and automatic pistols? Why would they want to interfere with that peaceful endeavor? |
Frontovik | 27 Apr 2007 8:25 a.m. PST |
Seems a bit daft making bombs & pistols in the town square, just inviting the bombers in, obviously ;o). |
Mobius | 27 Apr 2007 11:30 a.m. PST |
Franco was right. The Communists were responsible for the bombing as building weapons there was the cause of the attack. A town full of cordite and gunpowder might well be burnt down if it caught fire. I wonder if the workers in the weapons factories would be allowed to strike for a "living wage" and health care? |
Tea drink hazards | 27 Apr 2007 1:15 p.m. PST |
"The Communists were responsible for the bombing as building weapons there was the cause of the attack" No it wasn't. Read up on the subject: the stated object of von Richtofen was to destroy the bridge (they actually missed it, so he deemed the mission a failure). I thought this was common knowledge. Or can you point us to some other reliable and/or non-Francoist source? |
Doctor Merkury | 27 Apr 2007 3:44 p.m. PST |
Another point to note is that the Basques were not predominately Communist, in fact they were more Nationalist. Communists existed in the Basque Region, but did not have political power like they did in the Republic proper. I always found the Basques interesting as the some what political moderates of the factions of the war. Doc |
Lee Brilleaux | 27 Apr 2007 8:47 p.m. PST |
Surely the horror of Guernica is the special efforts that the Nazis went to to ensure that as many civilians were killed as possible? It wasn't a raid to destroy munitions factories that just happened to kill the workers; it was, by careful planned use of subsequent waves of bombers and ground-attack aircraft, designed to bring out the civilians into the open, and mow them down. |
Spectralwraith | 28 Apr 2007 12:03 a.m. PST |
They're Commies. It's our patriotic duty to lie about them. |
VillageIdiot | 28 Apr 2007 12:24 a.m. PST |
Why is it that a sensible thread always manages to gain a collection of s who have no idea what they are talking about ;-[ As Hoopoo said try reading up on the subject, that is if you can read of course. I expect Mobuis still believes that Dinamiteros destroyed all the buildings, and the filthy commies shot all the civilians. |
Mobius | 28 Apr 2007 12:43 a.m. PST |
No, Villageidoit, its just war. Stuff happens in war. Rolling bombs out of plane doors is not the most accurate bombing. Trying to say there was some sinister genocide plot of civilians is just after the fact political posturing. A sensible thread yet? "bomb, bomb, bomb" "Three planes" "terrorize" "Historical truth". They want the truth? They couldn't handle the truth. Anyways tell it to Bomber Harris. |
VillageIdiot | 28 Apr 2007 4:36 a.m. PST |
Now you see, case in point, you assume that 3 planes did the bombing. First wave one Heinkel He111 from the Conder Legion experimental squadron, thats a real bomber, drops its full load of bombs , then s off, the people think the raid is over, and leave the shelters, next wave is the entire squadron dropping all sorts of ordnance. the people are scared because some of the bombs are big, and it looks like the cellars won't withstand the attack, so they run into the fields, next wave is Heinkel 51 fighters, who merrily machine gun the civilians hiding in the field. this is just the start of the attack, at 5.15 the sound of more planes is heard, these are "trams" the nickname for the Ju52, three squadrons of them systematically carpet bomb the town in 20 minute relays for the next two and a half hours, The bomb loads were made up of small and medium bombs, plus 250kg bombs, anti personel 20 pounders and incendiaries. This BTW is taken from the Condor Legion records, Von Richthofen kept notes assessing what the Legion were doing This bombing technique was used to good effect by the Germans in WW2, they learnt a lot in Spain. So, like I said, pick up a book and read it before spouting crap. |
Quebecnordiques | 28 Apr 2007 11:16 a.m. PST |
Thanks VillageIdiot for taking the time to write and quote from what I consider is a fundamental primary source. Undoubtedly there will be members who will still see the Guernica bombings in another light, and there really is not much more one can do about it. One just has to respect the existence of opinions that differ and continue with one's life. On another note it is good to hear from Mexican Jack Squint again. Back in form
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RockyRusso | 28 Apr 2007 11:36 a.m. PST |
Hi No good guys in this war. R |
VillageIdiot | 28 Apr 2007 12:01 p.m. PST |
RockyRusso, good point, although I feel the Basques were not too bad, and got a bum deal all round Quebecnordiques, its important to look into records of the time to try and garner some understanding of events, there is so much rubbish written about the SCW, that forming an unbiased opinion is very difficult indeed. The only bit from Von Richthofen was the record of ordnance, he does give a very dry view of the attack itself, the gaps were filled in from Preston and Beevor's books. |
Doctor Merkury | 28 Apr 2007 1:58 p.m. PST |
Nice site on the Basques: link Thread jacker, Doc |
Quebecnordiques | 28 Apr 2007 5:32 p.m. PST |
RockyRusso states that there were "No good guys in this war." Possibly, but then if that is so, than that same phrase can and may well be applicable to every other war. "Good point, although I feel the Basques were not too bad" by VillageIdiot does not sound right at all. In fact it sounds awful, almost as if RockyRusso's assertion is right yet excusing the Basques. One may even consider what the Santanderinos, Asturians and Leonese think on the collapse of the eastern sector of northern front precisely due to the surrender of the Basque Nationalist army. Having said that, my hat comes off to the Basque people
many a summer month did I spend as a kid with my grandmother "amama" Dominga in Bilbao. "
Irrintzi bat enzunda
" |
VillageIdiot | 29 Apr 2007 2:37 a.m. PST |
Sorry, that did look a bit odd!!! What i meant to say was that the Basques on the whole do not generate as much bad publicity as some of the other factions. I've not found any references yet to them executing people en masse.They certainly suffered at the hands of the victorius Nationalists, and the knock on effect of the war led to ETA, and the terrorist campaigns undertaken by their armed faction. OK so the Basque army did collapse, but they had a woeful lack of support from the Republican government. No-one comes out of this conflict squeaky clean, some were worse than others, thats all I was trying to say. |
Quebecnordiques | 29 Apr 2007 4:24 a.m. PST |
I understand VillageIdiot, it just seemed strange coming from you of all pèople! I think I remember reading that some of the Republican officers on that front talked about woeful coordination with the Lehendakari (Basque Autonomous President)and his PNV sponsored Basque army and with the regular Republican army, which reminds me a bit of the bad blood existing in our day and age between the Ertzantza (Basque Police Force) and the Guardia Civil. Having said this, prisoners caught by the antagonist Basque and Navarrese troops could expect some quarter from each other, so yes, there was that humane side. This was not to be expected if the regular Nacionales entered onto the scene where even the shooting of clergy for their Basque nationalist ideology occurred. Not surprisingly these reprisals were hushed even by the Vatican
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Spectralwraith | 29 Apr 2007 4:48 a.m. PST |
Off subject, but can the Basques leave the 'union' of Spain if they vote for it Democratically? I wish the Basques could be their own country if they want to. |
Quebecnordiques | 29 Apr 2007 5:21 a.m. PST |
Well Spectralwraith, technically yes, but just as in the case of Québec in Canada or Scotland in the UK I suspect that reality is another kettle of fish. I am also of the opinion that there is a vast minority of Basques which cannot declare their real political feelings as the political climate in Euzkadi is not as healthy as it should be. There is tremendous political pressure from a sector of extreme Basque nationalists and one must remember that the question of terrorism has yet to be certified as a thing of the past. So my opinion, and this is only my opinion, is that the Basque Country should guarantee an optimum degree of political diversity and freedom before a referendum can be proposed. Canadians in the previous referendum on Québécois Independence stated that they should also have to a certain degree a right to opine if they wanted Québec to seperate from ther rest of Canada
my opinion is that they too are correct. So in conclusion, all this about people's democratic rights to seccede is highly speculative and in my opinion tremendously subjective. I really cannot see the need for such a move in established states apart from the megalomianiacal needs of provincial politicians
As further food for thought, what happens to those places where the move for independence is not successful. Let's say for the sake of saying, places like Bilbao or Vitoria in Euzkadi, Montréal or Gatineau in Québec or Glasgow in Scotland, St. Malo in Breizh (Brittany) and so on, so on
? Following the all-powerful force of democracy, Do we create independent city states? I'd be interested to hear your reactions. I'd also like to know why Spectralwraith would like to see an independent Basque Country and also if there are independece movements in an area of his country. Regards |
Quebecnordiques | 29 Apr 2007 5:24 a.m. PST |
Talking about the shooting of priests, what a coincidence, taken from today's Cadena Ser website, here is an edited extract, albeit in Spanish, of what I mentioned before. La Conferencia Episcopal prepara una peregrinación a Roma por los mártires de la Guerra Civil
Sin embargo, la Iglesia española no ha dedicado ni una sola mención al asesinato de sacerdotes católicos por los franquistas durante la ofensiva del País Vasco. De hecho, el portavoz episcopal, Juan Antonio Martínez Camino, dice que no sabe si esos hechos sucedieron. |
Quebecnordiques | 08 Jul 2007 5:04 p.m. PST |
This article from today's Libertad Digital is probably the most amazing and saddening article I have read in a long time. Please, please, please somebody give me their objective opinion
I'm still in shock. El mito de Guernica se resiste a morir 7 de Julio de 2007 – 19:49:50 – Pío Moa Ibarreche ha exigido por enésima vez que el gobierno español (lo trata como extranjero) pida perdón por el bombardeo de Guernica, y –atento siempre al negocio– que el cuadro de Picasso vaya a "Euskadi", cualquier cosa que eso sea, aunque ya sabemos a qué se refiere. El mito de Guernica ha resultado enormemente productivo para toda la golfería progre mundial, y particularmente para el secesionismo sabiniano. Ha permitido a este último presentarse como representante del pueblo vasco y como víctima de uno de los crímenes de guerra más característicos de la guerra mundial, aunque los mismos fueran cometidos sobre todo por los anglosajones, precisamente los creadores del mito. Hoy, después de estudios como los de Vicente Talón, César Vidal y, sobre todo, el muy pormenorizado de Jesús Salas, conocemos los aspectos clave del bombardeo: a) Fue ordenado por el jefe de la Legión Cóndor Von Richthofen, sin permiso de Franco ni de Mola. Franco, que ya había dado órdenes de no atacar la población civil, las reiteró a continuación. Los bombardeos sobre la población civil fueron iniciados por el Frente Popular. b) La acción obedeció al intento de Richthofen de que la ofensiva de Mola avanzase sobre Guernica para copar a una importante masa del ejército contrario. Habría sido una decisión militarmente acertada, pero Mola, que no congeniaba con el alemán, mantuvo el plan primitivo de avanzar sobre Durango, por lo que el efecto militar inmediato del bombardeo se perdió c) Sin embargo tuvo un efecto militar aplazado del máximo alcance: Aguirre, jefe del gobierno autonómico, hizo un llamamiento a los suyos a luchar con la máxima energía, pero ocultamente intensificó sus contactos con los fascistas, con vistas a traicionar al Frente Popular mediante una rendición por separado. El primer resultado de estos tratos fue la toma de la industria bilbaína intacta por las tropas de Franco, y el segundo la primera gran victoria masiva de los franquistas, en Santander. d) Los muertos fueron, como máximo, 126, cifra muy alejada de los 1.600 que predominaban en la propaganda (oscilaban entre los 800 y los 3.000). No obstante muchos se resisten todavía y hablan de 200 o 300 muertos, sin fundamento alguno e) La destrucción por los incendios fue espectacular. Afectó inicialmente a cincuenta edificios, extendiéndose luego hasta a doscientos (70% de la villa). Los bomberos de Bilbao, a escasa distancia, tardaron dos horas en llegar y se retiraron a medianoche, sin apagar los fuegos, que continuaron extendiéndose hasta el día siguiente. f) La Casa de Juntas y el árbol de Guernica, contra lo que quiere la leyenda, no fueron atacados. Los alemanes ignoraban por completo aquellos símbolos. Tampoco es cierto que Guernica fuera una "capital cultural" o "histórica" de las Vascongadas y que allí jurasen los reyes "los fueros vascos". En realidad no había tales fueros vascos, pues cada provincia tenía el suyo propio, y a menudo presionaba ante la corona para obtener privilegios a costa de los de las otras provincias. g) El mito lo crearon sobre todo unos periodistas ingleses, de los que Steer fue el más destacado, con vistas a alertar a los ingleses, por entonces sometidos a la propaganda pacifista del laborismo, sobre los peligros que se venían encima desde Alemania. Irónicamente, serían los ingleses quienes desarrollasen al máximo los ataques aéreos de terror sobre la población civil. Como indiqué, el separatismo sabiniano y la izquierda en general han utilizado de forma masiva el mito, haciéndolo creer a innumerables personas y beneficiándose de las correspondientes rentas políticas. Razón de más para que todos hagamos el máximo esfuerzo por dar a conocer la verdad con la mayor amplitud posible. Cada uno tiene ahí una tarea, si quiere salir de la pasividad. En la base de todas las amenazas a la democracia se encuentra una falsificación del pasado. e
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jdpintex | 08 Jul 2007 7:25 p.m. PST |
Yeah me too! Order me another taco por favor. |
Quebecnordiques | 09 Jul 2007 4:54 a.m. PST |
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Palafox | 10 Jul 2007 7:31 a.m. PST |
Very good analysis Quebecnordiques. I agree with most of what you say. |
Sargento 100x100 Algodon | 10 Jul 2007 9:50 a.m. PST |
I agreed with Palafox
The Libertad Digital is not the Holy Gospel but I tried to add more infomation to the myth, that must be put in front of the previous information and checked. This is the way scientific History is made. Aside, the surrender of the PNV militias to the Italians in Santoña is one of the crearest examples of treason in military history
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Quebecnordiques | 10 Jul 2007 3:40 p.m. PST |
Thanks Condottiere
y gracias Palafox and Sargento 100x100 Algodón. I must state that I do not agree in its entirety with Moa's article, in fact I agree with very little. Point "g" is extremely debateable as it is downright false, to put an example. I am ever so sorry for those interested in the theme and unable to read Spanish I could translate but would not know if the feedback would be worth it
Hmmmm
any further discussion on this theme would be very worthwhile. As a historian, I must say that Libertad Digital's Pio Moa is NOT a historian in the modern sense of the word. He is rarely objective or what is worse, does not have the slightest intention of being so. He writes for a certain sector that buys exactly what they want to read. Consequently, there is no real attempt at using new sources to clarify events
but please remember, this is just my opinion. |
Palafox | 10 Jul 2007 4:26 p.m. PST |
I understood you did not agree with Pio Moa, neither do I. Unfortunately examples like that can be found from nearly all political tendences, I even found some sources and people claiming the Carlist wars were the basque independence wars. Spanish history has become recently way too politized and that's a big mistake. History should not be tweaked for anyone agenda. |
Quebecnordiques | 11 Jul 2007 4:47 a.m. PST |
Well Palafox, Great to hear that!All the same, tell me why you think Moa is selling all those books he is selling. I'd also like to know why this type of revisionism does not provoke a public debate of some kind with intelligent and adequate people on TV giving their opinions and trying to reach some type of compromise. It would be far more productive than having journalists and politicians doing the same
In a country like Spain with perennial pre-election campaigns i.e. when there are no national elections, you have autonomic one, then local ones and then you have to consider how important other autonomic elections are as they never coincide with the autonomy where one lives, so the media milks them for all that they are worth
.if the Catalans vote this, if the Basques vote this, if the Andalusians have to vote on their renewed statute of autonomy
.It is no wonder being a politician is such a big business
. So
.if the politician and his sidekicks radicalise the whole society and stress everybody and create a perennial state of a political RealMadrid-FC Barcelona situation
power and influence is for the taking and publicity in newspapers and radio programmes rockets sky high! What a farce! |
Palafox | 11 Jul 2007 5:41 a.m. PST |
Yes, a farce is a good definition. I think that's a good analysis of our "idiosincrasy". Public debates?. To solve anything?, that won't happen. TVs have their own agendas, wheter political or commercial, the few spanish historians are not heard because what they have to say does not suits anybody agenda nor people is interested in History. Sadly, History has become a nasty and lowly way to movilise people flaming them with "historical offences that demand a compensation", wether it's glorification or demonisation of a past government (the famous Second Republic), fueros or "nation that was invaded and subdued and demands emancipation from its slavery" and a lot of similar crap. It's very sad indeed. |
Quebecnordiques | 11 Jul 2007 9:26 a.m. PST |
Unfortunately I have to concede you are right
public debate? What WAS I thinking! |
Sargento 100x100 Algodon | 11 Jul 2007 3:46 p.m. PST |
I remember reading a Times Literary Suplement praising Moa's article not as a historician but as a "enfant terrible" who can cast some doubt about how the Spanish Civil war has been told and as an invitation to serious researchers to revisit the period. Some of the "holy cows" of Spanish history (some of them of English origins as Preston) must redefine its teachings
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Palafox | 11 Jul 2007 11:59 p.m. PST |
I'd agree mostly Sarge. But seems lately nearly everyone in Spain has an axe to grind about the SCW so it's very difficult to find any neutral and serious research on the subject or the fews that can exist are lost and difficult to discern among the mass of partisan jobs. |
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