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"LarryDunn vs Mein Panzer, PBI and Blitzkrieg Commander" Topic

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4,537 hits since 29 Mar 2007
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For Sale29 Mar 2007 9:52 a.m. PST

Seems that Larry Dun not only doesn't class IABSM as a popular set of rules, he's also decided that "Mein Panzer", "Poor Bloody Infantry" and "Blitzkrieg Commander" don't class as popular rules sets! and all references should be deleted from Wikipedia because they are to quote him "Spam".
Just who is this guy and what gives him the right to decide what rules people should play?


(They've been put back for now, until he deletes them again)

John the OFM29 Mar 2007 9:59 a.m. PST

He is someone who thinkw that Wikipedia should be treated seriously, that's who he is.

Jay Arnold29 Mar 2007 10:10 a.m. PST

Wikipedia is worth every penny you pay for it.

Gwart loves Bill29 Mar 2007 10:25 a.m. PST

Larry Dunn is a TW&T and smells of wee.

Personal logo toofatlardies Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Mar 2007 10:27 a.m. PST

"He is someone who thinkw that Wikipedia should be treated seriously, that's who he is."

No John, he is someone who thinks his view of the hobby is paramount. What gives him the right to remove those rule sets from a list of WWII rules?

Wikipedia is, in my opinion a valuable source of information, but one that should be treated with healthy scepticism as the data inputted there can be of very variable quality. Anything that can be done to increase the reliability of that data is good, however subjective removal of rule sets that one person seems not to consider valid examples of their genre is not doing anything to achieve that.

I do wish Larry Dunn would make some comment to tell us why he is behaving in this manner. I am sure it is well meant, but ultimately mistaken.



lugal hdan29 Mar 2007 10:36 a.m. PST

Agreed – he's a vandal. Any rule set, ESPECIALLY ones that are commercially available, should be listed.

It's time to see if there's a way to report someone to the Wikimasters.

dscarpenter29 Mar 2007 10:39 a.m. PST

Apparently "Notable" means someone Larry has heard of – which seems to indicate a rather narrow field. I wonder if he bothered to research some of the designers he removed on the assumption they were self-publicizing?

Ditto Tango 2 129 Mar 2007 10:42 a.m. PST

In fairness, this is a very very subjective judgement anyway. Why isn't Bob Jones mentioned, for example? There are other "popular" rule systems that have been omitted by both Larry Dunn (who at least uses his name) and user

grin Whoever is, he just sounds like a standard tunnel visioned wargamer that many of us are grin just wanting to get his favourite rule systems in there.

Seriously, the expression "I am sure it is well meant, but ultimately mistaken." could be said many times over, I am sure, for many rule sets.

combatpainter Fezian29 Mar 2007 10:49 a.m. PST

Larry Dunn is a TW&T and smells of wee


lugal hdan29 Mar 2007 10:54 a.m. PST

I've read his edits, and I have to agree that those rules don't count as "popular" systems, though I think a few of the other ones listed shouldn't be there either. "Popular" should be reserved for the true heavy-hitters, like DBx, Warhammer Whatever, FoW and the like which EVERYONE has heard of and most likely has played or at least seen played.

I agree that Bob Jones should be on the list of notable designers though, along with Arty Conliff.

rktsci29 Mar 2007 10:57 a.m. PST

IMHO, some of the edits make sense. Some don't. YMMV.

For Sale29 Mar 2007 11:00 a.m. PST

He even deleted the reference to Combatpainter, does that mean Combatpainter is now a non-person? ;-)

Grumpy Monkey29 Mar 2007 11:24 a.m. PST

Combatpainter is back, or he was at least 3 minutes ago.

For Sale29 Mar 2007 11:33 a.m. PST

Well looking on the bright side, hopefully it's given the page a bit of publicity and if a wide enough selection of wargamers contribute, it might become a little less subjective.

Personal logo toofatlardies Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Mar 2007 11:48 a.m. PST

"I have to agree that those rules don't count as "popular" systems"

PBI II & Blitzkrieg Commander are hugely popular systems and very well respected.

Windward29 Mar 2007 11:50 a.m. PST

Curious who made him God (or at least the God of WW2 Rule sets)?

He seems to have an issue with British sets, excluding Rapid Fire. Maybe his thing is they are self published? But that would mean he would have to exclude DH/C7B and CD too!

combatpainter Fezian29 Mar 2007 12:03 p.m. PST

I'm back! I'm gone! I'm back! I'm gone… That guy is butting heads with the wrong guy. My sister is trained in the martial arts and she can kick his butt.

combatpainter Fezian29 Mar 2007 12:04 p.m. PST

He even deleted the reference to Combatpainter, does that mean Combatpainter is now a non-person? ;-)

Now that is not right!!!!

Gwart loves Bill29 Mar 2007 12:23 p.m. PST

combat who?

For Sale29 Mar 2007 12:32 p.m. PST

Never heard of him!

Condottiere29 Mar 2007 12:36 p.m. PST

Dunn or Combatpainter?

lugal hdan29 Mar 2007 12:40 p.m. PST

Granted, I'm not a WWII gaming expert, but I've never heard of PBI II, and I don't know much about Blitzkrieg commander. Maybe it's a continental thing? (As, "popular on my continent"…)

PzGeneral29 Mar 2007 12:43 p.m. PST

Combatpainter is a Non-person?

huh, it must be true, I read it on the internet….

thumbs up

Huscarle29 Mar 2007 12:50 p.m. PST

Larry A***hole Dunn actually states "I have initiated, or substantially expanded or reduced, several Wikipedia articles (or sections in articles)that I may know nothing about but that I dislike the subject or the people with which the subject is associated, as well as using my personal opinion to edit articles that contain information I do not agree with, despite the validity of the information."

I don't usually advocate violence but this guy deserves a good kicking. Does anyone have the misfortune to know him?

lugal hdan29 Mar 2007 12:53 p.m. PST

Huscarle – if that's so, then someone needs to contact the Wikipedia moderators and ask that he be blocked from making changes.

John the OFM29 Mar 2007 12:57 p.m. PST

I think that the Dawghouse has been doing a spring cleaning for a reason. All the cells are aired out and fresh as a daisy.

Condottiere29 Mar 2007 12:57 p.m. PST

…as well as using my personal opinion to edit articles that contain information I do not agree with, despite the validity of the information."

Not that I'm defending him, but it appears that his Profile was edited recently. See link:

TMP link

Third post down by Goldwyrm.

Goldwyrm29 Mar 2007 1:09 p.m. PST

I find two or three of them around the gumball machines every time I go to the grocery store.

Goldwyrm29 Mar 2007 1:10 p.m. PST

That was a classic bug post and will stand as is.

For Sale29 Mar 2007 1:11 p.m. PST

Does that mean you can't believe everything you read on the internet?!

Goldwyrm29 Mar 2007 1:11 p.m. PST

Now what I really said was-

As John mentions above, I pointed out on the parallel topic that someone had jumped in and edited Larry Dunn's user profile. I presume in response to his edits.

I'm finding most of this humorous more than anything. It is Wikipedia we're talking about. However..I do very much understand how people would feel about an individual applying his own arbitrary prejudices to remove the inclusion of their contributions to gaming. Bad on Mr.Dunn.

Goldwyrm29 Mar 2007 1:13 p.m. PST

Richard, You should only believe what the computer tells you because the computer is your friend.

For Sale29 Mar 2007 1:39 p.m. PST

The computer is my friend…

Personal logo toofatlardies Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Mar 2007 1:44 p.m. PST

Richard Ansell has no friends. Even Larry shuns him! ;^D

For Sale29 Mar 2007 2:32 p.m. PST

I'm getting a tee-shirt "I've been shunned by Larry Dunn"

Skipper29 Mar 2007 2:36 p.m. PST

After reading both threads, I'd have to conclude that Larry Dunn sounds like a FOW fanboy. All of the games he's targeted are those that are getting the players fleeing or rejecting FOW. Of course, this is just my opinion, but since its not on Wikkepedia, only Bill and myself can delete it.


Grizwald29 Mar 2007 3:13 p.m. PST

Gentlemen, gentlemen (any ladies present?) this can be dealt with in a civilised manner. See:

Take the man to task if he won't respond with a reasoned reply and call in a third party arbitrator according to Wikipedia's own policy.

Gwart loves Bill29 Mar 2007 3:44 p.m. PST

it's more fun to just call him an arseclown though.

Streitax29 Mar 2007 4:22 p.m. PST

Mr Snorbens, please do not interfere with the development of a good lynch mob. When the crowd has reached the appropriate level of frenzy, we will strike. I would hate to see you mistaken for Mr. Dunn, as a maddened crowd will often take the first person they see when the target cannot be found. And Mr. Dunn is apparently cowering in his bunker issuing delusional commands to his Army of supporters by means of Wikipedia, so it might be difficult to grab him.

Mobius Supporting Member of TMP29 Mar 2007 4:49 p.m. PST

If you have to read Wikipedia to find what are popular wargame rule sets YOU are not a wargamer. As such your opinions are irrelevant.

roryfx29 Mar 2007 4:53 p.m. PST

Alright, wandering around the wikiverse, I've come across this discussion that Mr. Dunn is having with another individual regarding a map of the Sassanid Empire.

Interesting, please read and draw your own conclusions:


Big Miller Bro29 Mar 2007 5:16 p.m. PST

lol thats quite a read, Larry seems good at making friends.

SeattleGamer29 Mar 2007 5:19 p.m. PST

There is a HUGE difference between placing what amounts to a sales pitch on Wiki, and adding information that is germain to the topic.

Larry is removing basic, useful information. He's not editing out spam.

Wouldn't it be nice if a person looking for basic info on various rules could find a spot where they were indexed and easy to find? I think it would be. I would like to see a list where a person could hit a link and read a paragraph or two on ALL of the rule sets out there.

Is the set designed for individually based minis or groups? Does it use card activation or IGO-UGO or something else. Is it geared for a squad, a platoon, a company, a battalion or what?

TMP is excellent for discussions of rule sets (and a zillion other topics) but it's not so good at organizing that info. Wiki could provide that organization.

I see no problem listing Rapid Fire, Blitzkrieg Commander, Command Decision, I Ain't Been Shot Mum, Flames of War, Face of Battle, Crossfire, Spearhead, Arc of Fire, Mein Panzer or any of hundreds and hundreds of other options. And being able to click on that name and retrieve an article that gives you a synopsis of the rules would be outstanding.

Yeah, this is Wiki, and it is worth what you pay for it. But it is also a great place to start when looking for info. Often the links lead to other items where even greater detail can be found.

I think the problem with the current article is that there are three paragraphs describing what "Rulesets" means. The third is a listing of supposedly "popular" titles. How does one judge that. Sales figures? Does anyone have a list of sales figures for any of these rule sets (other than the parent companies, I'm guessing not). I don't think convention sightings has anything to do with popularity. Some rules just don't play well in a set time-limit, multi-player forum.

So unless Larry can share sales figures, how does he know what's popular?

I'd like to see that article split into two parts. The first is the couple of paragraphs describing Rulesets. The next would be "Current rulesets include:" and then by historic period, a listing of rule sets.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a list of all available ancients, or american civil war, or world war two, or whatever? Then the fuss isn't over "popular" but "available".


kevanG29 Mar 2007 5:35 p.m. PST

The man removed Colin Mumford as wargaming spam…..

Maybe Larry is trying to be a giant name in wargaming…by deleting all reference to everyone else.

Condottiere29 Mar 2007 5:50 p.m. PST

Maybe Larry is trying to be a giant name in wargaming…by deleting all reference to everyone else.

Brilliant!! laugh

Farstar29 Mar 2007 5:59 p.m. PST

When presented with a communal sandbox, do you:

A) play in it with whoever else happens to be around;
B) attempt to control it by limiting access; or
C) wee in it and move on.

Condottiere29 Mar 2007 6:14 p.m. PST

You forgot:

D) Kick sand in each others' eyes.

The G Dog Fezian29 Mar 2007 6:39 p.m. PST

Bill, maybe its time to dust off and update the Rules Directory?

Big Miller Bro29 Mar 2007 6:42 p.m. PST

Here here! with wargames directory gone I would love a list of rules and figures and such I could cross reference- please Bill? :D

Personal logo Ed the Two Hour Wargames guy Sponsoring Member of TMP29 Mar 2007 7:46 p.m. PST

As Carlos would say "Larry duh, da, duh."

Free set of the ever so non-popular NUTS! (supported by the 1800 member Yahoo group) from Two Hour Wargames who tells me what Carlos' last name is.

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