Help support TMP


"speaking of Vegans...(wierd poll)" Topic


40 Posts

All members in good standing are free to post here. Opinions expressed here are solely those of the posters, and have not been cleared with nor are they endorsed by The Miniatures Page.

For more information, see the TMP FAQ.


Back to the Wargaming in General Message Board


Areas of Interest

General

1,471 hits since 27 Jul 2003
©1994-2019 Bill Armintrout
Comments or corrections?

A Geek Named Carl28 Jul 2003 3:36 p.m. PST

I have been a Vegetarian since I was 14(i'm 20 now) and I was wondering if there is anyone else on this board who is a Vegetarian or Vegan?

Just curious. sorry for the stupidity of this :P

Mike Monaco28 Jul 2003 3:42 p.m. PST

Sure. I've been a vegetarian since I was 16 or so; I'm 31 now. One of my regular gaming friends is a vegan and my brother who also a gamer was a vegetarian for a while, but has since resumed eating animals.

Chris Wimbrow28 Jul 2003 3:55 p.m. PST

I only eat animals that don't eat other animals ;)

RexMcL28 Jul 2003 3:59 p.m. PST

I was vegetarian for 6 months or so but decided to quit

Steve Hazuka28 Jul 2003 4:23 p.m. PST

"Rather the eye of the tiger than the dull stare of the dairy cow."

I think Sun Tzu said that, then again maybe I did.

I order a side salad with my steak, is that ok?

Cacogen28 Jul 2003 4:39 p.m. PST

I used to be a Deacon in the Church Of The Vegan Noncommital. We never alluded to whether we ate anything or not.

A Geek Named Carl28 Jul 2003 4:41 p.m. PST

ANYTHING is okay. I don't judge others based on there diet. I am not an elitist who think myself the better because I do not eat meat. I can't really honestly give a huge reason why I do not eat meat. it just came natural. I became a vegetarian at a rather young age I supose. but anyways it seems someone will always defend or question there right to eat meat when met with a Vegetarian or vegan. but still. no worries. eat what ya want :P

ming3128 Jul 2003 6:09 p.m. PST

If god did not want us to eat animals he would not make them taste like Meat. My home made naturally smoke honey and garlic beef jerky is killer . Today I experiment with honey mustard jerky .

Steve Hazuka28 Jul 2003 6:43 p.m. PST

mmmmmmmmm jerky. mmmmmmmmmm beer, mmmmmmmmm beer and jerky. Oh the gas!

Pardon me.

Dan 05528 Jul 2003 7:12 p.m. PST

500,000 years, 25,000 generations of sacrifice and struggle, mankind fighting its way to the top of the food chain, and now ... (sigh)

Scurvy28 Jul 2003 8:56 p.m. PST

I must admit if something suffered to get to my dinner plate it tastes just sooooo much better. That being said I have no qualm with butchering my own meat either. Seeing a steak go from walking in the field to dinner plate makes one appreciate it a whole lot more.

condottieri2328 Jul 2003 9:23 p.m. PST

I simply don't understand why people feel a need to vent such antagonism against others just because they chose a certain diet.

streetline29 Jul 2003 12:46 a.m. PST

Ogre13 - I've been vegetarian for 15 years, and I'm rapidly becoming vegan. Several of the people that introduced me to gaming are vegetarian. It's not that uncommon - and seems to attract a more adult reaction in the UK than the US. Hey ho.

Autochton29 Jul 2003 3:04 a.m. PST

I will eat practically anything if hungry enough. I can accept that some people are allergic or intolerant of meats of various sorts (know several), but I have more trouble with the philosophical/religious angle on vegetarianism.

I mean, just because the cabbage doesn't scream when you kill it, doesn't mean that it can't feel pain, right? And what if carrots are, in fact, highly intelligent lifeforms that communicate via pheromones or weak electromagnetic emanations? We don't know that they aren't! :) I usually call this 'teenage vegetarianism', because it basically goes like this: "It's cute, so I don't eat it." Fish aren't cute, neither are eggs or milk. Potatoes and cucumbers aren't cute either. Cows and pigs are cute, though. I find that a somewhat shaky foundation for a choice of diet... ;)

And lastly, why voluntarily lower yourself on the food chain? (Hmm... does that mean that it's OK for humans to eat other humans, as long as they're vegetarians? ;P )

-A.

KatieL29 Jul 2003 5:00 a.m. PST

I live with a chap who's been vegan for a decade: he's six-four and shows no signs of malnourishment so it's obviously possible to live like that.

streetline29 Jul 2003 5:26 a.m. PST

Autochton - it's about a nervous system. Fish aren't cute, they're damn ugly, and we don't eat them (I avoid eggs and milk as well). OK - as well as being vegetarian, i smoke. Therefore i will consider all non-smokers with contempt because they pick a different carcinogen (red meat). How's that... ;)

DJCoaltrain29 Jul 2003 8:03 a.m. PST

I eat very little meat. Primarily I eat veggies and some fruits. I eat a little meat so people won't make fun of me and I can pass for a normal human being. :)

Streitax29 Jul 2003 8:27 a.m. PST

I have no problem with vegetarians who have no problem with those who choose to eat meat. As always, it is the intolerant on both ends of the spectrum that are the problem.

Prophet29 Jul 2003 8:56 a.m. PST

Evolution? Top of the food chain? Sheesh. I don't think obesity and heart disease are "evolutions" I'd like to undergo, thank you very much. Why would someone be vegan? Moral issues aside, meat is pumped full of hormones, nitrates, antibiotics, etc. that all harm the human body. Raw meat is full of bacteria. Cooking meat causes carcinogens to form. And meat is high in saturated fat and cholesterol. Yummy, heart disease, cancer, and food poisoning all in one! Vegans live an average of 8 years longer than non-vegans. The human body can thrive on a vegan diet. Soy contains all the essential amino acids. My "little" brother is a 6'5" 210 pound vegan who bench presses around 250 lbs. I'm 6'4" and weigh around 225.
It's not something I've ever been defensive of (before) but the ignorance here is pathetic, especially from a subculture that consists, stereotypically, of pencil-necked geeks and middle aged fat guys. Gamers are the last group that should be critical of anyone's nutrition habits (no, "Cheetos" are not a food group!)

Terry L29 Jul 2003 8:58 a.m. PST

I'll eat anything that doesn't move. Meat moves when it's alive. I'll eat it. Veggies move when the wind blows. I'll eat it....

StarshipTrooper29 Jul 2003 10:11 a.m. PST

adding to Prophet's comments......symptoms of Mad cow disease do not become obvious for 6-7 years after infection...... stock animals are sent to market in18- 24 months..... the possibility of eating infected meat before it is known to be infected is very high......resulting in a slow AIDS like death.....
The anti-biotics used extensivly in animals, will be lessened in their effectiveness when needed to protect human life, because of the constant unnecessary exposure through ingestion of meats.
AND
The corporate farming practices utilized by meat and dairy industries today, presesnt a level suffering in the life of each animal, that is unacceptable to any one who says they respect life.
They remove all reminders of the suffering and present us with nice little sanitary packages of flesh for convienient use.
I am sure that there would be a lot more vegetarian/vegans, if each of us
had to kill and render with our own hands, the meat we eat.


Hacksaw29 Jul 2003 8:31 p.m. PST

Yes,and Mad Cow (VCD) isnt wiping out Europe. VCD is caused by bad practices with feeds used for livestock (specifically feeding them waste products made from livestock). As long as thats not done, VCD is not a problem.


The only reason your statement about more people being vegetarians if they had to kill/render their own meats might be true these days is due to the seperation most people have from the land and its bounty. For many people still, and for many many more over 50 years ago, slaughter and preperation were not any big deal.

Social mores and attitudes change. Look at the way we have sterilized death and funerals compared to even 50 years ago. How many people have a viewing in their home anymore? How many people prepare their own relatives for burial these days?


People are welcome to eat whatever they want. I just wish they would stop getting on each other about it. I dont know what is worse, fat ignorant meat eaters or skinny vegans with attitudes :-)

Hacksaw29 Jul 2003 8:35 p.m. PST

Oh, and meat by itself does not cause heart disease or obesity, poor diet choices and lack of exercise does that.

yankincan29 Jul 2003 10:27 p.m. PST

I once was honored to attend a traditional Chinese wedding and was served Jellyfish as one of the entree's! How hungry did the first guy to eat this thing have to be? What could have possibly made him think "Hmm, look's good!" Anyway, I ate it and it wasnt too bad except it kind of chewed back when I chewed on it. Best regards to all, Rob..

Cowboy30 Jul 2003 2:30 a.m. PST

Thanks for the funny one Rob.
As to dietary issues, I eat a small amount of meat but my Wife and myself did a year without meat and "oddly enough" lost fat like mad, felt great, had tons of energy... I really don't know why we went back to eating meat, but we eat in moderation, which I thinnk is important.
But sneering at others who "march to the beats of a different drum" is about as ignorant as it gets, too bad some people can't accept other ideas.

RockyRusso30 Jul 2003 6:31 a.m. PST

Geeze, first posts were reasonable and polite, then suddenly polemics. "you gonna die if you eat that cave man diet".
Lighten up.
The "caveman diet" comment is the germane issue. Humanity is UNIQUE, a single world wide species. This is incredible. The REASON, is that we evolved as OMNIVORES. This is due to 5million years as "hunter-gatherers". Not Farmers, not grazers, HUNTER-gatherers.
Both diabetes and alcholism are more common among populations that are more recently agricultural. Most adult onset diabetics can reduce or forgo meds IF they switch to high protean MEAT diets. See, the problem with all this is that individuals vary.
If eating a veggie diet is cool for you, fine. Don't insist on it. Soy may contain all the "essential" ammino acids, but only if you carefully define "essential". AND, then, you must suggest a model for how you evolved to eat SOY which is not readily available to our hunter-gatherer ancestors.
And B12
I have too many vegans in my life who are agressive in thier religion. For ME, veggies leave me ill and listless.
Sorry, one size does not fit all.

R

Thurlac30 Jul 2003 7:39 a.m. PST

As an adult onset diabetic, I can second those comments.
Sometimes when the sugar is high, a slab of steak is a damned fine way of getting through the day without making life worse.

I personally find the concept of excluding anything from your diet because of squeamishness vaguely repulsive. It feels like too many of my fellow citizens have separated food source from food.

I used to lecture on the circuit on historical food and drink and it was quite sad to see how many of the children in the audiences did not know that pork came from pigs and beef came from cows.

Our abstention from various types of food in our diet is a modern luxury. 1,000 years ago, the notion would have been unthinkable. Food supply was far less guaranteed.

I accept that there are poor farming practices that need stamping out. Although from an agricultural background I had NO sympathy with the farming community who contaminated their herds with CJD. However, that is no reason to cut meat entirely out of your diet.

Starship Trooper: I respect life. I cherish the bounteous gifts that surround me. I can look upon a field of sheep with awe and wonder. I can also eat those sheep with no moral dilemma whatsoever. If you have a problem with that, then, I would humbly suggest that your moral philosophy is the one that needs review. Mine is in agreement with several hundred thousand years of mankind's actions and most major religious creeds.

With respect, knowing many dairy and pastoral farmers, I am quite unaware of the other practices that you find so repulsive. Their practices that I see are perfectly acceptable and humane. Are you sure that you are not looking for boogie men and setting up stalking horse villains to justify your comments?

One size does not fit all, I agree. If people wish to exercise their choice in the West to exclude certain elements from their diets then it is a matter of choice but not morality. Fashion does not equate to right.

Prophet30 Jul 2003 8:37 a.m. PST

My brother is a vegan for ethical/moral reasons. I became vegetarian for health reasons, but am leaning towards veganism the more I find out about large "factory farming" practices. Frankly I find it disgusting.
Other's eating meat is fine. I liked meat when I ate it, but it's not worth taking 8 years off my life. Veganism is an unquestionably healthier choice.
As for "essential amino acids," I define those the same as everyone else: aminos that cannot be synthesized by the human body from other aminos and so must come from our food.
Frankly, the idea that "this is the way we evolved, so it is our nature and duty to be omnivores" is just plain dumb. If you believe that crap, you must also believe that our brains evolved so we could come up with better solutions than our ancestors did. Your fingers didn't evolve to use a keyboard, but you're still doing it anyway aren't you?
High protein diets are horrific on one's health. Our bodies are designed to use carbs as energy. The use of protein as an energy source causes extra stress on the liver which turns the aminos into glucose, causes osteoporosis as calcium and other minerals are taken from bone tissue to buffer the nitrogen, which is a biproduct, and cause kidney stones as those minerals must be eliminated through waste. A high protein diet also doubles and in some cases triples the risks of many types of cancer. Since an estimated 70% of the population is chronically dehydrated anyway, and carbs are most peoples main source of water, limiting carbs in a high protein diet worsens this condition, causing additional stress on the liver and kidneys and slowing metabolism among other things.
Anyway, enough ranting on my part. Someone else will have to pick up the slack ;) If you want to eat meat, that's fine, but if you do your homework,you will come to the ralization that vegetarianism is a better choice health-wise, ethically, and resource-wise.

carpe carne

StarshipTrooper30 Jul 2003 9:16 a.m. PST

Thurlac: The Corporate Farming practices I object to have come about in the last 25 years or so. Historical "Old Farmer Brown" had a barn yard full of animals, that pretty much ran free, until it was time to become a meal. No problem.
Today, a chicken is kept in a 7"x7"x7" wire cubical that it never leaves, nor do it's feet ever touch the ground, to make it easier to clean the drip pan under the cages.It was discovered that egg production is higher when the chickens are slightly dehydrated and hungry, so thats how they are kept.
Veal, ( meat from beef calves ) is a product of removing the new born calf from it's mother so that the milk that would be consumed by the calf can be sold or used to make cheese or other milk products. The calves a put into pens that restrict their movement ( so the meat does not get tough from unnecessary exercise )and they are fed from a trough in front
of them, and crap into a trough behind them, for six weeks while they are fattened, to become what is known as VEAL.
If these practices are morally acceptable to you, fine. I object.
I am not suggesting that anyone do anything. I fully realize that I live in a unique time in history and the decision to be a vegetarian is a gift of our
free market, where almost anything I want is available, and I have the luxury of many many choices. The abuse of life forms for increased profitablilty is neatly concealed from us. I don't mean to get anyone upset, because this is all just B.S. The only things that really count in this world are how one votes in local and national elections and how one spends one's money. I will not spend my money to continue the suffering.

Scurvy30 Jul 2003 10:20 a.m. PST

ok a few valid points........

You can eat 'suffering' free meat. It comes down to knowing the source of your product.

Why I say source of product is I fail to see the suffering inflicted on a properly raised sheep cow pig or chicken. (or any other domestic critter we enjoy)

Here is why

In the wild these creatures would have a hella nasty old time. Sheep for instance need things like shearing and crutching to be comfortable. More importantly though the animal does not have to trek miles for food and water, in drought and fire the humans protect the heard to the best of their ability, humans kill predators that threaten the heard, humans will even provide mdical assistance to an animal if needed.

In return the heard looses a few of its number to feed man. (not to mention put a little coin in his pocket.) In my opinion a fair and reasonable deal.

One can disagree with the morals and ethics of feedlot farming and still enjoy a nice beefsteak.

In fact one could say the only reason those animals survive in their modern form is they are delicious.

TodCreasey Supporting Member of TMP30 Jul 2003 11:03 a.m. PST

I have a friend that is the son of a grumpy old beef farmer who wouldn't change - he has a small herd, they eat grass, they live outside etc.

10 years ago he was a fool missing a great business opportunity - now he is a highly successful natural farmer.

I just try to know what I eat came from which means I eat very little meat as it is hard to know outside of your own kitchen. Free range chicken eggs are available everywhere and organic veg is becoming more common - I even brew my own beer now (and that is really fun!).

I am also 6'4" and 215 pounds so I am not starving and I have never felt better since I cut down on the chemicals.

RoosterMan30 Jul 2003 1:27 p.m. PST

Does being a vegan and a gamer mean that eating Doritos, Cheetos, and Snickers are okay???

Just coming back from GenCon, and seeing the plethora of unhealthy gamers, if any of them are vegan, they're still eating crap :)

Eggs are just liquid chicken...

A Geek Named Carl30 Jul 2003 3:26 p.m. PST

Eggs are not liquid chicken... the hens that layed the eggs you get from the grocery store have never even SEEN a male chicken.

sorry...

RockyRusso31 Jul 2003 8:06 a.m. PST

Hi
As I said, this has become a religious discussion!

to quote:but it's not worth taking 8 years off my life. Veganism is an unquestionably healthier choice."

The research "proving" this is by vegitarians. In medicine, this is called "observer bias". You ignored my post and another where being a VEGAN would KILL ME and the state two diabetic.

As for "essential amino acids," I define those the same as everyone else: aminos that cannot be synthesized by the human body from other aminos and so must come from our food.

And there are two that only come from meat. You use them in your muscle tissue. You can live without them, thus, when you said "essential" I wanted your defination. Eating a real vegan diet requires you do a lot of carful shopping. Hardly "natural".
I left out the problem with B-12, as I assume you are not a woman of child bearing age.

"Frankly, the idea that "this is the way we evolved, so it is our nature and duty to be omnivores" is just plain dumb. ...snip... Your fingers didn't evolve to use a keyboard, but you're still doing it anyway aren't you? High protein diets are horrific on.
I may be dumb, but I am not illogical. My fingers did not evolve for a keybord...but some human did design the keyboard for MY FINGERS. Not a cow's Hoof!
Nor would I assert that 5 million years of evolution as omnivores, Hunter/gatherers resulted in our being perfectly suited for a vegan diet.
My friends, the 7th day adventists, are vegitarians out of a religious impulse. I accpet that. But they don't insist is science. Course, they dont really believe in evolution either.

R

RoosterMan31 Jul 2003 10:49 a.m. PST

Ogre 13...

Sarcasm and wit should be a staple in every diet.

No Name 331 Jul 2003 12:41 p.m. PST

I think that eating vegtables is cruel because they are rooted to the spot and can not do anything to avoid harvesting.

Sorry - only verified members can post on the forums.