"Portuguese 1580-1640?" Topic

Hi, I understand that Portugal was in some 'union' with Spain from 1580-1640.

How did membership in that union affect Portuguese units' flags, equipment, and dress, especially in Portugal's colonial outposts, e.g. in Africa and the Far East?

Would Portuguese units and ships have continued to use their pre-union flags?

Regardless, and apart from the national flag, what did Portuguese pre-union flags look like?

Cheers,

Skeptic

link it's in Portuguese but it can help you.

Thanks, ataulfo! Knowing some French and Spanish, I think that I can understand most of it, just as those two languages seem to help with reading Italian.

Any ideas about regimental banners (on land)?

Cheers!

Skeptic

In practical terms, the two empires remained distinct, even though there was a union, effected by the succesorship to the Portuguese throne. On occasion Spanish naval and military units assisted Portuguese forces, as in Brasil during the wars with the Dutch but essentially they were distinct. I would go with the relevant flags for the Portuguese crown for the period as per above(btw there is an english version on the world flags website.

Regimental flags are a much more complex and to me mysterious subject. probably the best person to ask might be Kings Carbine at his Practical Soldier website. I would add the URL but I´m sitting in a ciber cafe In Salvador otherwise I would direct you there.

I don't find those commercials funny…..

Kinda dumb actually…..

How this happened is a great historical accident. The king of Portugal in 1578 was Don Sabastian, his uncle was king of Spain. Sabastian wanted to conquer north Africa for the glory of God, from the hands of Islam. So he put together an army, with help from his uncle, who may have warned him it was not a good idea to go running around with armies when you have no heir to the throne (other than that same uncle). Anyway, Sabastian goes off to north Africa and fights in the Battle of the Three Kings -- think of Custer's last stand or Isandlwana.

So the old uncle inheriated the Kingdom of Portugal.

See our game of this battle
link

From what I've found most flags were either white with a red Cross of Christ (like in Portuguese sails), White with the royal arms or a red St. Andrew's cross on a dark-blue field. Commanding officers also used their heraldic flags and there was always some sort of religious flag with the image of the Holy Virgin or St Catherine's Wheel. I've uploaded a couple of images with examples: link Hope it helps.

Cheers,

KC

@KC: Thanks again!

Cheers,

Skeptic

This site has some depictions of standards, admittedly from the post restoration period (1640 on) but may give you some idea.

viriatus.com/R1640_4.asp

I really have plans for those Eureka Portuguese figures:

link
TMP link

CC

@CM: Thanks! Do you have any idea if Foundry Sea Dogs would be suitable proxies for Portuguese?

Ref.:
link

I already have some, and would like to model them as Portuguese, at least until I can get an order of Eureka figures in …

Cheers,

Skeptic

Yes the Foundry figures would work nicely. Personally I prefer the Eureka figures ( a very generous wedding present from Nic has nothing to do with my preference I hasten to add). There are from memory about 60 plus figures not including the variants you can make to the open handed variants or head swaps or use of some of the Conquistadore range, also sculpted by the very talented John Jenkins. There is even a gorgeous little grasshopper gun to complement them. Given a contemporary Portuguese companhia/ bandeira circa 1570 had on paper 265 men it would be possible, if you were so inclined with a few head swaps to model a bandeira with almost no two figures alike.

Trust me the Eureka figures are well worth the wait.

You can see pics of the second release Portugese here if you are so inclined:

link

They're awaiting rephotography but you get the idea.

Re the flags. As it happens I was having dinner out tonight and the building where the restaurant is located has a small display of items related to the colonial period in Bahia. I was in a bit of a hurry but I noted a collection of reproduction period flags on my way out. There were various versions of the Portuguese flag, The Dutch West India Company, one from the restoration etc etc. One that caught my eye was labelled as being from the period of the Spanish- Portuguese union. How accurate it is I can't say but the others, such as the WIC flag were spot on.

It had a white field with a gold crown and some sort of escutcheon/ shield adorning a green spray of leaves. I will go back and have a longer look at it.

Well I went back. The flag in question has a white field with a crown and the Portuguese royal coat of arms, placed over a large spray of green branches replete with leaves, the sprays of greenery making an X shape and taking up about 1/3rd of the field. It's unusual and there is no info except for a small plaque suggesting the period of the Spanish Portuguese union. I checked the portuguese and FOW sites and yes the other flags they have are entirely accurate leading me to believe this has some factual basis. Whether it's merely a local variant for the Captaincy of Bahia I don't know but 'its an attractive item and I tend to paint one for my bandeirantes.